Tom Woods Driveshaft failure

[MUSKYMAN]

I have DC shafts front and back and honestly cant remember my angles.... let me look for my notes real quick from when I ordered them.................cant seem to find them but I might go out in a little but and climb under there and take a look.

I will say that so far I have noticed that install/removal of the TW shafts seems to be twice as time consuming as regular Rover propshafts, but only because everything is so much beefier- so not exactly a bad thing I guess.

from your description you are having issues at the pinion.

take the angle off the flat area under the pinion and a second one on the flat of the tube of the shaft....this will be very telling of where you are at and why that particular joint is giving you issues.

 

[gmookher]

I am reluctant to post this but since someone nominated Bill (GBR) I will suggest that it may be good to visit Bill too. He is in Salt Lake (about 45 miles from us) and you can see how he builds drive shafts while you're in town for a real "apples to apples" comparison. Rather than apples to the unknown.

Ya know I dont recall seeing a shaft balancer in his shop and I've been there a few times..but I did see alot of rover diffs and such, does anyone know if GBR makes their own shafts or is it something they resell? I like Bills shafts, I'm not crazy about the gearsets..

I'd love to go to visit both shops, and would love to take pics of both shaft manufacturing and QC processes..at BOTH locations

It would be great to do hardness tests on both woodsgoldseal andspicer Ujs for the record as well, i'd buy shafts from either vendor, personally

 

[MUSKYMAN]

It would be great to do hardness tests on both woodsgoldseal andspicer Ujs for the record as well, i'd buy shafts from either vendor, personally

why?

what would you be looking for?

is hard and brittle better then soft and ductile in a u-joint?

do tell Gem because I know you have all kinds of metallurgical background

 

[gmookher]

touche,

I dont need a background in metallurgy to understand the value of hardness in a roller or needle bearing, nor do you:

I happen to be a chemistry major who ended up in Pharmacy school, go figure, son of a chemist, etc

My sig other happens to deal with metal hardness too, as a surgen who does prothesis implants, there are all types of metals out there, with different properties etc.

Understanding hard on hard surface contact vs hard on soft doesnt take a genius does it?

While I dont know the nuances of the different tests, my goal would be to walk away with astm type understanding of the surfaces being tested, balls, races, etc and

is hard and brittle better then soft and ductile in a u-joint?

ofcourse yes, the balls and races should be of harder metal than the cross, duh

Unlike you, I am not an expert in all areas but rather a jack of many trades. As long as we use the same test on both metals, and I am sure Tom knows which test to perform/which method to use, I'm just the observer


I get off on this stuff, ya know?

 

[crown14]

from your description you are having issues at the pinion.

take the angle off the flat area under the pinion and a second one on the flat of the tube of the shaft....this will be very telling of where you are at and why that particular joint is giving you issues.

while you were posting this I was on my back under the truck doing that exact thing


if 1 is the front shaft and 2 is the rear

and

A is the angle at the front most flange
B is the angle of the tube
C is the angle at the rear most flange


1A 12
1B 15
1C 3

2A 3
2B 11
2C 3

I think we have a problem at 2C, I think I need to take shims out of teh rear links- seems my setup would be great for a non double cardan shaft but I am running a DC sooooo... would you concur?

 

[MUSKYMAN]

while you were posting this I was on my back under the truck doing that exact thing


if 1 is the front shaft and 2 is the rear

and

A is the angle at the front most flange
B is the angle of the tube
C is the angle at the rear most flange


1A 12
1B 15
1C 3

2A 3
2B 11
2C 3

I think we have a problem at 2C, I think I need to take shims out of teh rear links- seems my setup would be great for a non double cardan shaft but I am running a DC sooooo... would you concur?

ok I need to understand this...infront you have a 3* difference from the flat on the bottom of the third and the tube of the shaft?

and in the rear you are 8* away from having the two flanges parralell for you single cardin rear shaft?

yes front is at the acceptable limit...rear is at least 5* out and would by spicer standards suffer a 50% reduction in u-joint service life

if I understand the AB2C process

 

[D Chapman]

Maybe it's a sign....
http://www.sv4w.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/twisted.JPG

 

[chrisvonc]

I nominate Dan Chapman for the Woods challenge.

 

[crown14]

ok I need to understand this...infront you have a 3* difference from the flat on the bottom of the third and the tube of the shaft?

yes

and in the rear you are 8* away from having the two flanges parralell for you single cardin rear shaft?

I am running a DC rear shaft so I believe my 2B and 2C measurements should be within 3 degrees of each other? Instead of 8 degrees apart?

front is at the acceptable limit...

good!

rear is at least 5* out and would by spicer standards suffer a 50% reduction in u-joint service life

if I understand the AB2C process

sounds like you figured it out but I think its more like 11-3=8 (not 5)

 

[MUSKYMAN]

ok crown you have lost me.

are you running DC shafts front and rear?

if so then the only measure that matters is the flat area under the thiird member and the angle of the tube of the driveshaft. the flat area under the third is the exact same angle as the pinion and gives the best place to measure from.

no need confusing things with the flange at the pinion or the flange at the transfercase those matter when you are using a single cardan shaft.

 

[Roving Beetle]

Thanks for the "votes" guys.

I really would be happy to go - can leave tomorrow if needed and seriously do not need any of the extras at all Tom has so graciously offered.

I would be happy to, and think it would be VERY wise to go see Bill while I'm there.

I used to have (closed last year) a very good local driveline shop that i used for many years. They did everything from small driveshafts for small cars/trucks all the way up to big equipment/skidders/18 wheelers etc. I got to know the guys there very well over time and they would let come back to the work bay and watch or paw through parts looking for the right bit/joint for a project - so I have seen some of this stuff before.

I also do a lot of my own work on the lathe and milling machine (older manual S.B. machines mind you) and I really love the art of making stuff *work* and seeing how things function.

Owning a custom design and build boatyard as well as a small Euro/Brit repair shop/tech facility I would love to see what really goes on for one of the biggest driveshaft producers around. So obviously I nominate myself! LOL.

I am currently putting a Mazda Rotary engine into a small runabout power boat - owner wants a smooth no vibration power plant.... interesting project that has required a bunch of custom work - including my own design drive flex shaft coupler to mate with the Volvo Penta stern drive unit. I actually thought of TW shafts when I was thinking how to put this thing in - almost called to see if he could build something custom.

Oh yeah, lastly - hell yeah I'd be willing to have a few *refreshments with you Tom!


Doug

 

[Discoinjapan]

Like I said put a few of the best candidates on a pool and vote. I would say, PT,Chappy, Doug, Crown, Thom and Will would be a good list of respected and honest candidates.

 

[Nomar]

Maybe it's a sign....
http://www.sv4w.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/twisted.JPG

Is that a pretzel under your truck??
Sweeeet.

 

[crown14]

ok crown you have lost me.

are you running DC shafts front and rear?

if so then the only measure that matters is the flat area under the thiird member and the angle of the tube of the driveshaft. the flat area under the third is the exact same angle as the pinion and gives the best place to measure from.

no need confusing things with the flange at the pinion or the flange at the transfercase those matter when you are using a single cardan shaft.

Yes DC front and rear, RTE radius arms and rear links.

OK

If I measure on bottom of the 3rd the measurement is the same.

 

[ptschram]

Ya know I dont recall seeing a shaft balancer in his shop and I've been there a few times..but I did see alot of rover diffs and such, does anyone know if GBR makes their own shafts or is it something they resell? I like Bills shafts, I'm not crazy about the gearsets..

I'd love to go to visit both shops, and would love to take pics of both shaft manufacturing and QC processes..at BOTH locations

It would be great to do hardness tests on both woodsgoldseal andspicer Ujs for the record as well, i'd buy shafts from either vendor, personally

I am certain that Bill has his driveshafts made by someone for him. As for the diffs, I'm not sure

 

[MUSKYMAN]

Yes DC front and rear, RTE radius arms and rear links.

OK

If I measure on bottom of the 3rd the measurement is the same.

so then the bottom angle on the 3rd is the same as the angle on the driveshaft tubes?

 

[Tom Wood]

Just a quick note for whomever will be coming out. This month is pretty much out of the question. My wife and I are moving this month, out of our starter home of 22 years ago, to something a lot closer to my shop. I would like to see if we can arrange for early November. Possibly Friday the 6th or the 13th.

Also, to those of you who have E-mailed me expressing a desire to be the one to come out, I am not ignoring you, I just need to let some dust settle and take care of "regular business" too.

 

[Tom Wood]

Oh my gosh. I forgot about the SEMA Show. I will be out of town on the 6th of November. So how about the 13th or the 20th. If these days don't work I will accomidate you anytime from November 9th on.

 

[jhmover]

Well we shall see. I just ordered a Double Cardan for the rear of my D1....I keep busting the caps on the pinion end with the stock one (not even driving off road with the last one). I have a TW on the front, been on there over a year a no problems at all.

 

[KyleT]

pick me pick me.. Im young and naive....