D
K
Kyle
Guest
Good point D . Neither does Keith.. Only Difference is that he has a few more sets out there then I do..... When there are a thousand sets out there not breaking then you say they arent breaking.... Not that I dont have faith in Moser axles , I have used them in a few race cars and they are very affordable. Its just that its a little early to make assumptions about how well they will perform...
K
Kyle
Guest
Bruno , I have a feeling when someone spends enough money on designing a set and they do come out it will be the end of it. No speculation and no picking it apart. Things that work and work well are just like that. How many posts do you see on here complaining about the steering wheel ? None . Why ? Because it does exactly what its suppsed to ... Very simple.. Not glorified or over marketed , its just the thing that gets it done..
Editing: Well for some people it does...
Editing: Well for some people it does...
D
D Chapman
Guest
I guess what I ment was, I did not know you sold axles. I don't know much about Keith, and I don't know much about his background. But, he has taken the time to do the research, and put together a "kit" to upgrade the Rover axles. I think he too understands that this "kit" he has avaliable is only going to take you so far. Thats why he is looking at different options. As for his rear axles, I think they are pretty beefy. I don't know how many sets are on the trails, but I have not heard of anyone breaking them so why pay the extra 210.00 for the GBR stuff? Yea, GBR has been around a while, and they have proved them self on the trail....but who says you can't build a better axle?
D
D Chapman
Guest
Bruno said:
Oh, you must be one of the {Bill voice on}"yea, I got a few sets out in the field right now"
Anyway, I think the CV Unlimited CV's are 300m, arn't they? And at what, half the cost?
K
Kyle
Guest
Thats just it. I DONT. So by me saying that mine arent breaking means nothing... Get it ?
Dont get me wrong , I was talking to someone the other day about trying a set to see what I get. I am familliar with the manufacturer and I do have some faith in them but I just aint going nuts over them until there are many many sets out there not breaking in trucks that are actually using them. How many trucks here have HD axles in them and rarely see a trail at all ? Out of those trails how many really really push them to the limits ? Remember that we are comparing one axle to the other in this thread. I KNOW the MD axles will get it done on an over loaded Disco running most everything that its capable of getting through in the US to the tune of , hmmmmmm , ,,,, 130K roughly.... Thats my personal experience and just like the steering wheel I can put them in there and forget about it. Perhaps the Moser axles will be the same.. We just dont know that yet...
As far as the "kit". I was reffering to the Toy conversion "Kit". Unless he is supplying a jig and drill fixtures and studs. Its not being done right... As I said , I have a pretty good feeling that if you jigged it up , you would find that none of the holes matched and it is a pretty debateable rig. Whats the odds that any holes will line up ? I mean seriously.. Thats some wishfull thinking there...
Dont get me wrong , I was talking to someone the other day about trying a set to see what I get. I am familliar with the manufacturer and I do have some faith in them but I just aint going nuts over them until there are many many sets out there not breaking in trucks that are actually using them. How many trucks here have HD axles in them and rarely see a trail at all ? Out of those trails how many really really push them to the limits ? Remember that we are comparing one axle to the other in this thread. I KNOW the MD axles will get it done on an over loaded Disco running most everything that its capable of getting through in the US to the tune of , hmmmmmm , ,,,, 130K roughly.... Thats my personal experience and just like the steering wheel I can put them in there and forget about it. Perhaps the Moser axles will be the same.. We just dont know that yet...
As far as the "kit". I was reffering to the Toy conversion "Kit". Unless he is supplying a jig and drill fixtures and studs. Its not being done right... As I said , I have a pretty good feeling that if you jigged it up , you would find that none of the holes matched and it is a pretty debateable rig. Whats the odds that any holes will line up ? I mean seriously.. Thats some wishfull thinking there...
D
D Chapman
Guest
Like I said before, i don't know that the RT axles are any better. I called Bill first, and waited a week for him to call back. He never called so I called RT. Same deal with my front end. I called Bill, and he never called me back, so I called RT again. I have been more than happy with the support Keith and Troy have given me, and belive me thay have bent over backwards. In return, I sent them a friend of mine who wanted a front end set-up, and has had very good luck with it so far. So really, what make GBR axles so much better than RT's? I can't figure out all the stuff needed to say who has the stronger deal. I'm sure someone can....Bruno said:
K
Kyle
Guest
We need Nadim to chime in on the toy conversion. Anyone know what the dimm is from the third member mounting flange to the centerline of the axle on both the toy and the rover ?
D Chapman said:
Dan, sounds like RT is giving you good service, that's great. When I decided to ugrade my axles I asked for personal experiences from people I trust ,and did a bit of my own research, the determining factor (for me) was the opinion those I asked had of the Maxidrives and the facts they offered as substantiating evidence.
I have had prompt and courteous service from Bill at GBR, even with regard to non purchase related issues, as such, I do not share in your apparent dislike for them.
Bruno.
Well let me put things this way. Hytuff (GBR) is about twice as strong as the RT material, if you want something that is strong and priced about the same as RT go for ashcroft. They are EN20, split the difference in strength. Or, unless you are running a detriot, just run stock and carry a couple spares.
As far as the toy conversion you are polishing a turd. More polish, more parts, more dollars, the rover axle platform is crap. Now if you are swapping in a front salisbury with high end cvs and chromo shit it might be ok but why not put something strong in there like real toy axles FJ80 and do it right.
Me I am happy with stock with longfielded cvs. If they break, well I have spares, and spares are cheap.
As far as the toy conversion you are polishing a turd. More polish, more parts, more dollars, the rover axle platform is crap. Now if you are swapping in a front salisbury with high end cvs and chromo shit it might be ok but why not put something strong in there like real toy axles FJ80 and do it right.
Me I am happy with stock with longfielded cvs. If they break, well I have spares, and spares are cheap.
K
Kyle
Guest
K
Kyle
Guest
yep...I agree ..if you are going to build a couple dream axles for a disco it would be 40 spline ford 9" stuff all the way.
you could run pretty much any tire you wanted and never worry about breakage
you could run pretty much any tire you wanted and never worry about breakage
D
D Chapman
Guest
Alright, again I'm no expert, but in my 1 hours worth of research this is what I'm finding.
First, Kyle, Strange used the Hy-tuf materal....
Hy-Tuf, Like the GBR stuff, is a high silicone nickel cromo material. When "Through hardened" it has a RC (Rockwell) rating of 46 to 48. It's not as good as 4340 but much cheaper, yet does not like bending.
I can't find much about the 1541H material like Moser uses, but Moser Induction Hardens there axles. From what I can tell, the 1541H is a Carbon based metal, and cannot be Through Hardened??????
What is better, Through or Induction Hardening? Looks like Through hardening is be cause the entire axle has the same RC rating, where as Induction only hardness the outer edge leaving the core of the axle "soft".
Now, all axles are going to "twist" the same amount, no matter if it's made from 1541H, 4340, 1040, what ever. What makes the difference is how the axle can handle the twisting. A Alloy axle like GBR does not mind twisting. After it twist to a point, it will un-twist to it's original form. A Carbon based material does not like the twisting as much as an Alloy and will break sooner.
Ok, now, the twisting is caused by energy, right? Energy HAS to go somewhere. We rather it get to the wheels.... But, sometimes that energy gets "forced" to one point in the axle, like an imperfection. Usually, at this imperfection, the weak link, is where the axles says fuck it I quit. So that brings us back to the hardening process. By induction hardening the shaft, the imperfection are "sorted out". Also, the Induction process makes the axle less prone to fatigue.
Now the splines. Each axle has the same 24 spline count, so nothing needs to be said there. But, the GBR axles have a "waisted" design. Meaning, the spline area of the axle is the biggest diameter. This allows the "working stress" to be applied into the splines inserted into the diff. The Moser axles are the same size though out. Meaning the spline area is the same size as the axle shaft. This means that the Moser axle is likey to fail at/near the spline, rather than the shaft (I think).
So that brings us to the size of your shaft. This is where I just do not have enough information. Yes, the GBR material, design, and heat treating process are "better". But, what is stronger? Both types of material of the same size are going to twist the same amount. Yet, the Moser axles are bigger, hence less twisting. GBR axles are not induction hardened so in theory imperfections could be present at the weakest part of the axle, the outer edge. So it seems that the Moser axles are going to be a little more "rigid" where as the GBR shaft are going to be a little more "flexy". Someone would have to use some mathematical formula to determine the overall strength of each....
First, Kyle, Strange used the Hy-tuf materal....
Hy-Tuf, Like the GBR stuff, is a high silicone nickel cromo material. When "Through hardened" it has a RC (Rockwell) rating of 46 to 48. It's not as good as 4340 but much cheaper, yet does not like bending.
I can't find much about the 1541H material like Moser uses, but Moser Induction Hardens there axles. From what I can tell, the 1541H is a Carbon based metal, and cannot be Through Hardened??????
What is better, Through or Induction Hardening? Looks like Through hardening is be cause the entire axle has the same RC rating, where as Induction only hardness the outer edge leaving the core of the axle "soft".
Now, all axles are going to "twist" the same amount, no matter if it's made from 1541H, 4340, 1040, what ever. What makes the difference is how the axle can handle the twisting. A Alloy axle like GBR does not mind twisting. After it twist to a point, it will un-twist to it's original form. A Carbon based material does not like the twisting as much as an Alloy and will break sooner.
Ok, now, the twisting is caused by energy, right? Energy HAS to go somewhere. We rather it get to the wheels.... But, sometimes that energy gets "forced" to one point in the axle, like an imperfection. Usually, at this imperfection, the weak link, is where the axles says fuck it I quit. So that brings us back to the hardening process. By induction hardening the shaft, the imperfection are "sorted out". Also, the Induction process makes the axle less prone to fatigue.
Now the splines. Each axle has the same 24 spline count, so nothing needs to be said there. But, the GBR axles have a "waisted" design. Meaning, the spline area of the axle is the biggest diameter. This allows the "working stress" to be applied into the splines inserted into the diff. The Moser axles are the same size though out. Meaning the spline area is the same size as the axle shaft. This means that the Moser axle is likey to fail at/near the spline, rather than the shaft (I think).
So that brings us to the size of your shaft. This is where I just do not have enough information. Yes, the GBR material, design, and heat treating process are "better". But, what is stronger? Both types of material of the same size are going to twist the same amount. Yet, the Moser axles are bigger, hence less twisting. GBR axles are not induction hardened so in theory imperfections could be present at the weakest part of the axle, the outer edge. So it seems that the Moser axles are going to be a little more "rigid" where as the GBR shaft are going to be a little more "flexy". Someone would have to use some mathematical formula to determine the overall strength of each....