"Post-normal" science redux

apg

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Dec 28, 2004
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East Virginia
For the clueless, the cynical diehards among us and the ideologically-constipated deniers of global warming, it's gotten awfully quiet as of late. Never mind the fact that four separate, independent studies found no validity to the FOX-induced 'scandal' of "climategate", so instead of bringing back the original thread (with its 560 follow-ups) and embarrassing the neo-luddites who thought global warming science was "post normal", here's the news. The real facts....

Like David Stockman and Arthur Laffer who have publicly repudiated the "trickle-down theory" of economics, this blast of reality for conservatives comes from from a prominent scientist who was once widely quoted - and cheered - as a climate change skeptic, someone who dismissed most previous research as "polluted by political and activist frenzy."

Richard Muller is a physicist at UC Berkeley, and frustrated by what he considered to be shoddy research, he launched his own study to set the record straight. 1.6 billion records later - five times the size of any previous study - he published his conclusions. In the conservative Wall Street Journal last week. "Global warming is real" he wrote.

Despite what the posters in the original thread (and FOX) said about the sloppy research and "post normal" or fraudulent climate research, he found the skeptics to be wrong. Wrong when they claim figures were skewed by urban 'heat islands,' and wrong to base arguments that seem to indicate a cooling trend. (How many original posters referenced last winter's snow storms? More moisture and 'energy' in the atmosphere is one subset of global - and ocean - warming.) "You should not be a skeptic, at least not any longer," Muller wrote.

Deniers have been reduced to silence, denial or incoherent mumbling. Like Cain, Perry and Bachmann. Perry claims some are manipulating the data to win research grants. (What a tool....) Bachmann claims it's "naturally occurring." Cain simply denies the science. The GOP is turning into the anti-science party. It's a real bitch when reality collides with your faulty ideology.

The rise in temperatures in the past few decades is consistent with previous models based upon greenhouse gas emissions. And thanks to Muller, it has been demonstrated that previous research was careful and honest. Definitely not "post normal." Only the dimmest, know-nothing politicians (Perry and Bachmann certainly fill that bill....), the most ideologically-constipated conservatives, or employees of coal and oil companies, will continue to deny global warming.
 

jhmover

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Apr 23, 2004
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I believe! I believe! I ran a computer model that gave my Disco 1000 HP so it must really have 1000 HP because the computer model said it did! Proof positive there's global warming and 1000 HP Discos! More proof? Look at the snow in Mass and Colorado today! More Proof? Boreal is opening a ski run already! Yes it's certainly hot!
 

apg

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Dec 28, 2004
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Snow is weather...not climate. I really thought you were smarter than that, but apparently not. But keep proving your ideological constipation anyway....
 

p m

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Can't remember the indication that the global warming was anthropogenic in Muller's study, but I may not have paid enough attention.
 

jhmover

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Apr 23, 2004
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apg said:
Snow is weather...not climate. I really thought you were smarter than that, but apparently not. But keep proving your ideological constipation anyway....

Tell that to Al Gore not me. Every time there's a weather event he's and others are blaming it on global warming. Funny how when you warmtards claim weather is proof of global warming it's perfectly OK, but when someone who doesn't believe in it mentions it, we're constipated. Typical.
 

Blue

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Mar 26, 2004
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Man-made global warming is a fallacy, no matter how much people like apg run around screaming "the sky is falling".
 

knewsom

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Jul 10, 2008
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You guys seriously amaze the everloving shit outta me.

If you close your eyes, plug your ears, and shout, "LALALALALALALALALALA, I CANT HEAR YOU" then there must be nothing else in the world.
 

p m

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knewsom said:
You guys seriously amaze the everloving shit outta me.

If you close your eyes, plug your ears, and shout, "LALALALALALALALALALA, I CANT HEAR YOU" then there must be nothing else in the world.
please provide a reference for a reputable piece of work proving anthropogenic cause for global warming.
Quotes from mass media DO NOT COUNT.
 

knewsom

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La Mancha, CA
p m said:
please provide a reference for a reputable piece of work proving anthropogenic cause for global warming.
Quotes from mass media DO NOT COUNT.

We already did this dance a couple years ago - I provided links to a climate denier's website wherein they acknowledged that humans had exacerbated an existing trend and that human activity was likely responsible for 2-3 degrees of change over the past hundred years or so. I really don't feel like trying to find that link again.
 

1920SF

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Jan 6, 2007
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For what's its worth, we're more than a bit concerned about it in the DoD: "Climate change and energy will play significant roles in the future security environment." (http://www.defense.gov/qdr/qdr as of 29jan10 1600.PDF)
The QDR is dated, and derived from a much larger study into the subject.

Volatility in weather, i.e. snowing this weekend, is-as was pointed out-what happens next weekend (weather), not what happens over the next few decades/century (climate).

Denying it is always an option. Worked well for Neville Chamberlain for awhile.
 

apg

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Dec 28, 2004
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East Virginia
kennith said:
Stop it jhmover. You are going to make him cry.

Actually, listening to the global warming deniers - as well as the current crop of POTUS wannabes - has become rather amusing, even comical at times. What would you call someone who continues to believe obviously biassed, agenda-driven propaganda delivered by some bloviating talking head - despite ample and compelling evidence to the contrary? Sheeple? Republicans? Come up with a more accurate descriptor than ideologically constipated and I'll be happy to use it.

Lies abound from the far right.... Not one of the many reasons the neo-cons gave for the Iraq war has turned out to be true. Ditto for NRA's 12-point anti-Obama screed prior to the election. A recent CBO study ("Trends in Distribution of Household Income Between 1979 and 2007") has clearly disproven the whole "trickle down economics," the central plank of the republican party, even as the theory's original creators disavowed it as well. And now one of the most vociferous global warming deniers has stated "you should not be a skeptic, at least not any longer." Yet some still continue to deny this "inconvenient truth." Deny, deflect, attack is the GOP's SOP.

There was a time in this country not too long ago when "conservative" actually meant something to be admired. Like adherence to the rule of law. Caution in foreign entanglements and fiscal responsibility at home. But no longer. Today's conservative movement has morphed into some perverted caricature of its former self. Driven by the far-right, the GOP has become the anti-everything party. Anti-science. Anti-education. Anti-almost-everything. A proposed overhaul of the criminal justice system was defeated in the Senate recently, despite support of more than 100 law enforcement organizations across the nation. The bill's supporters contend that the current system incarcerates too many people at too high a cost with poor long-term results. Republicans opposed it...just because....

Three decades of trickling-down, tax cutting, deregulatory ideology have led to a massive redistribution of wealth. Some might call it theft. This is not what the republicans want you to think when the words "redistribution" or "class warfare" comes up. They want you to think of "socialists"...or Bolsheviks, not the bankers and brokers. In the process, a Hoover-style administration almost destroyed the nation's economy. Republicans are fervently hoping voters don't remember a damn thing when they enter the voting booth.
 

p m

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APG, you would be absolutely indispensable as a writer for Pravda columns. The writing style is fantastic, I admire you. Haven't seen stuff this good since 1982 or so, just about when Brezhnev died.

I know you don't give a shit about it, but you may consider this - the hyped-up, slogan-laced style of your writing obscures whatever message you tried to convey.
 

Blue

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Mar 26, 2004
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AZ
p m said:
please provide a reference for a reputable piece of work proving anthropogenic cause for global warming.
Quotes from mass media DO NOT COUNT.

Peter, these guys just don't look at it the same way that you & I do. They get all emotional about it and then they just simply cannot stand it when someone like you or I say we don't subscribe to their belief. Then they have to try to give us the big giant pitch on how we are just uninformed, they will help us see the light, there is a cure for our condition, etc. Then when we still don't swallow the pill they have to get downright mean and label us as "deniers" or "constipated" or whatever someone noted about apg's post up there (I have to admit that I just scan over the long-winded posters like apg).

I don't know about you, Peter, but I'm not some hard-core activist for the super-secret global warming denier society....that's what guys like apg and knewsom make all the "deniers" out to be. As if we are on some campaign to denounce global warming and shout down the global warming advocates from the rooftops. You get the same tactics with the global warming crowd that you get from the in-your-face-gay-rights crowd.

But that ain't me at all....I'm not severely anti-global warming. I really don't give a shit what you believe. When I hear all this global warming hubbub, I just kind of shrug it off because I know it isn't a big deal. It's really not an important issue and it will eventually go away like all other fads (e.g. the global cooling scare of the 1970's). The only reason it can become an important issue, in my opinion, is when these nutjobs want to spend hoards of money (my taxpayer money) "solving" their fictitious problem. Look at how easily they resign themselves to the "fact" that man is evil, man is a plague, man is a virus. Look at young knewsom's post: "We already did this dance a couple years ago - I provided links to a climate denier's website wherein they acknowledged that humans had exacerbated an existing trend and that human activity was likely responsible for 2-3 degrees of change over the past hundred years or so. I really don't feel like trying to find that link again." Come ON Peter, like, everyone knows it's true and stuff!

As I've said many times before, I know that spewing all these gases out of tailpipes and chimneys and smokestacks is not a good thing. Deforestation, polluting watercourses, all that stuff does very matter-of-factly have a negative impact on our world and we need to stop it. That much is obvious. What is not obvious is how much of an impact man's evil ways have on global temperature. I am quite confident that man's impact on global temperature pales in comparison to other controllers of global temperature. By "other controllers" I mean the little things like the planet's position and orientation relative to the sun.
 

Mike_Rupp

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Mar 26, 2004
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Mercer Island, WA
When I was in grade school, acid rain was going to do us all in.

When Ronald Reagan was in office, that "dunce" was going to do us all in with a nuclear war.

Now, it's global warming, oh, I forgot, climate change.

In another 10 years after this fizzles out, there will be something else that will do us all in.