Ron said:
I'd have to agree with those two points. That would go a long ways towards building brand loyalty in this younger, affluent generation.
Land Rover Engineer Requires Info
- Thread starter ORC1
- Start date
I'd have to agree with those two points. That would go a long ways towards building brand loyalty in this younger, affluent generation.
B
bgsntth
Guest
1. Larger tires, 285 or 275/60-18's, the former is OE on LC/LX. More AT options. The LR3 readily makes ascents with the OE's on loose surfaces, but with a lot of wheel spin; which can be disconcerting for passengers/clients.
2. The ability to get an LR3 without the sunroof. Ours is chronically leaking, it creaks when off road, and the glass roof makes loading the roof-rack nerve-racking.
3. The TDV8, please, given the weight of the vehicle.
4. I agree with pm, while I know and have experienced TR finding traction, I did like the ability to lock the center differential in our recently departed GX470. On the GX it made a very big difference in the capabilities of the truck. You would have to tell us if it is truly needed, given the TR.
Other than those, I am very happy with the capabilities, ultra smooth ride off-road, adjustable height, and manueverability. Interior room is fabulous as well. Very few vehicles I know of that can take 6 adults up steep, narrow CA coastal tracks in comfort.
2. The ability to get an LR3 without the sunroof. Ours is chronically leaking, it creaks when off road, and the glass roof makes loading the roof-rack nerve-racking.
3. The TDV8, please, given the weight of the vehicle.
4. I agree with pm, while I know and have experienced TR finding traction, I did like the ability to lock the center differential in our recently departed GX470. On the GX it made a very big difference in the capabilities of the truck. You would have to tell us if it is truly needed, given the TR.
Other than those, I am very happy with the capabilities, ultra smooth ride off-road, adjustable height, and manueverability. Interior room is fabulous as well. Very few vehicles I know of that can take 6 adults up steep, narrow CA coastal tracks in comfort.
One comment on stock vehicles, is there any way to quiet the HDC, it sounds as if something has badly broken when in use. First time I heard it I thought the T-case was knackered.
Additionally, the plastic lower trim panels don't hold up well in real use, they wear prematurely when used as a step by passengers and they certainly don't stand up to rocks when off roading.
Additionally, the plastic lower trim panels don't hold up well in real use, they wear prematurely when used as a step by passengers and they certainly don't stand up to rocks when off roading.
Of 4 Land Rovers, I still own 3.
1st/1996 D1 - love it, never stuck anywhere, still runs great with 190k on the od. Wished it had more power/torque space inside.
2nd/2004 DII - love it too but never intended to 'really' trail it too hard, but more for camping and road trips with capability if somewhere cool to explore. Love the handling, snappy engine, favorite of any current rover, gave to mom and now she won't give it back
3rd-2007 (MkIII) Range Rover Super Charged-not sure what I was smoking that day but thought I could 'make' it into something to equally replace the DII or and LR3 ... sold shortly after and didn't loose too much $.
4th-the 2007 LR3 with almost everything I could think of building into and onto it in a short time for off-road and camping purposes.
However, the LR3 missed lots of what should have been obvious items and became limited where the Discos were not.
Simple things like tire size mentioned above.
Tire size-What the hell was Land Rover smoking when they thought it smart to limit the tire size clearance to 31.7"?! and with that, no room left for snow chains and getting runs at full articulation.
Towing-neat idea but poorly thought through and/or executed. To leave a sloped driveway with a swing away bike rack in the receiver and scrape the concret is pretty poor design. It could have easily been a flush 2" within the bumper where the recovery loop sits with red points elsewhere. DUMB Design.
Steering-wierd handling characteristics - and this comes from a race car track driving and evasive off road driving instructor friend as well. His words upon first trip through fun curvy rolling roads "hmmm, interesting steering input and response..." When pressed, he was trying to sound as nice as possible about my new vehicle.
Really, there are to many wierd things about the lr3 to go on with here.
I like some of the high end model features but not at the loss of the basic stuff that should stay on such a "4x4"
One of the biggest things though is how underpowered the lr3 is for it's weight and with all the power plant options out there. TDV8, TDI, etc, or even a gas V8 with more torgue per hp. This thing shifts to 5th and 4th all the time on gradual highway grades. Seems to be a torque issue.
1st/1996 D1 - love it, never stuck anywhere, still runs great with 190k on the od. Wished it had more power/torque space inside.
2nd/2004 DII - love it too but never intended to 'really' trail it too hard, but more for camping and road trips with capability if somewhere cool to explore. Love the handling, snappy engine, favorite of any current rover, gave to mom and now she won't give it back
3rd-2007 (MkIII) Range Rover Super Charged-not sure what I was smoking that day but thought I could 'make' it into something to equally replace the DII or and LR3 ... sold shortly after and didn't loose too much $.
4th-the 2007 LR3 with almost everything I could think of building into and onto it in a short time for off-road and camping purposes.
However, the LR3 missed lots of what should have been obvious items and became limited where the Discos were not.
Simple things like tire size mentioned above.
Tire size-What the hell was Land Rover smoking when they thought it smart to limit the tire size clearance to 31.7"?! and with that, no room left for snow chains and getting runs at full articulation.
Towing-neat idea but poorly thought through and/or executed. To leave a sloped driveway with a swing away bike rack in the receiver and scrape the concret is pretty poor design. It could have easily been a flush 2" within the bumper where the recovery loop sits with red points elsewhere. DUMB Design.
Steering-wierd handling characteristics - and this comes from a race car track driving and evasive off road driving instructor friend as well. His words upon first trip through fun curvy rolling roads "hmmm, interesting steering input and response..." When pressed, he was trying to sound as nice as possible about my new vehicle.
Really, there are to many wierd things about the lr3 to go on with here.
I like some of the high end model features but not at the loss of the basic stuff that should stay on such a "4x4"
One of the biggest things though is how underpowered the lr3 is for it's weight and with all the power plant options out there. TDV8, TDI, etc, or even a gas V8 with more torgue per hp. This thing shifts to 5th and 4th all the time on gradual highway grades. Seems to be a torque issue.
flyfisher11 said:
We've got a Ford plant right here that's not doing anything at the moment. Close to the ports for import/export, rail access, the whole 9 yards....
Now from someone who has driven a Land-Rover (note the hyphen....) from new - for 36 years - and still drives it every other day. Guess which is worth more - a '72 SWB in good nick or a '96 D-1?
Less electrickery. Too many things that can - and do - go wrong. Almost every switch right now has to be 'massaged' to get it to work -and some are the second (or third) in that location. I don't want to wait for some fool computer to boot up to virtual reality before it will move....
Reliability - covered by others....
Diesel! Nuff' said....
The 'stealerships'...not sure I have the time or energy to go into that. But something needs to be done in that regard.
But welcome to the group, nonetheless. I've sure you will get an 'education' here.
Cheers
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Hi, Welcome to Discoweb, we are likely a small number of voices, but stats show there are many LR owners who read this site and do not post, so you must factor in that fact- we may represent a growing contingent of off road enthusiasts.
It would be great if LR Corp allied with some aftermarket engineering frim as Nissan has done with NISMO. The ability to offer items to Vehicle owners at a premium price will be another profit center, and if well engineered, you could make it mandatory that if I plan to off road my LR I can buy into a better than normal warranty option- nothing worse than my modifying my vehicle to make it appropriate for ruggedized use and finding my local dealer to be unfamiliar with the modification and utilizing it as a means to deny warranty work/support. Example, I run a bigger tire, but my dealer uses this to not provide warranty on any drivetrain componenet. Unacceptable.
We want the ability to upgrade axels, suspension, and protective gear-bumpers skids etc, we want the option to regear to turn larger tires, reliably. Greaseable U joints, Front and rear Diff locks
If you cannot provide a solid axle vehicle, then please provide the option for HD CVs and such.
Center diff lock option with user control.
NON PROPRIETARY Front and rear diff locks =ARB, Detraoit, etc
Option for Standard Air suspension or HD lift coils for those who preffer the fault tolerant design of coils when venturing into the outback.
Full LADDER frame.
It would be great if LR Corp allied with some aftermarket engineering frim as Nissan has done with NISMO. The ability to offer items to Vehicle owners at a premium price will be another profit center, and if well engineered, you could make it mandatory that if I plan to off road my LR I can buy into a better than normal warranty option- nothing worse than my modifying my vehicle to make it appropriate for ruggedized use and finding my local dealer to be unfamiliar with the modification and utilizing it as a means to deny warranty work/support. Example, I run a bigger tire, but my dealer uses this to not provide warranty on any drivetrain componenet. Unacceptable.
We want the ability to upgrade axels, suspension, and protective gear-bumpers skids etc, we want the option to regear to turn larger tires, reliably. Greaseable U joints, Front and rear Diff locks
If you cannot provide a solid axle vehicle, then please provide the option for HD CVs and such.
Center diff lock option with user control.
NON PROPRIETARY Front and rear diff locks =ARB, Detraoit, etc
Option for Standard Air suspension or HD lift coils for those who preffer the fault tolerant design of coils when venturing into the outback.
Full LADDER frame.
Sell the defender here with solid axles and a diesel. Advertise it to the biodiesel hippie crowd as being good for the environment. Show commericials with it going bird watching and camping somewhere remote. It will sell. It will also apeal to most of the LR off road crowd over here.
Leslie said:
Um, the big oil burning pick-up drivers I've talked to at the pump are getting several mpg better than our rovers. my lr3 gets around 13-16. 16 only when on road trip and trying to be easy on the throttle. the discos did about as well and one is 11 years older with 180k mors miles! The VW V10 TDI gets 24 ish on the hwy and drive it like a sports car you still get 17 or so. It puts your head in the seat whe you floor it and has almost 1.75x the torque of an lr3 or new rr.
I hear from UK drivers of full size RR with the new TDV8 about mid 20's all the time. We even went to look out of frustration (and quickly knew it wasn't for us) the Benz 320/420 CDI for size, and fuel econ but it's no where near the vehcile otherwise. If Benz brought the G500 in Diesel, we'de consider it because it's a lot like the Defender on a luxury build. 3x manual locking diffs, size inside like the D90/Disco II, springs, axles, etc. ....albeit a few more $ but it is the only thing here that is a true blend of capability AND features.
Sell the standard Diesel turbo Defender in the US....and you'll double your sales.......match the price to the toyo FJ or Jeep Wrangler
now back to the question........
the guy's asking for improvements over the factory offering....ie what direction do we want to see on new models........
Well on this site we actually enjoy offroading....and not mall crawling..... so the present US LR offering is very nice and shiny...but aimed at school mums, bling dudes and the uber rich....
back to the Q
Like throw away those pretty plastic low riding front and rear bumpers........... they get ripped off on day 1 offroading
Either improve or protect the rear departure angle, to get over obstacles, I think every D2 offroaded here has either ripped off bumbers and or dented rear quarter panels..........so either shorten the tail or add sliders.
get away from your own specific coding of the ECU's there is no stealership in venezuela for example, if I get a fault in the ABS I'd have to ship my vehicle to brazil to get it looked at......
even now I'm in Cali and have to drive for 2 hrs just to get my codes read...and suffer $ 100 charge ontop of the gas and the 4 hrs time
if it was standard OBD 2 I could get service anywhere.
Super slick traction control is fine....where's the off button ?
I don't want automatic where's the manual option ?
Diff locks as a factory option.
Make the wheel arches a tad larger so that you can easily add larger tyres......and not require the sawsall.....
now back to the question........
the guy's asking for improvements over the factory offering....ie what direction do we want to see on new models........
Well on this site we actually enjoy offroading....and not mall crawling..... so the present US LR offering is very nice and shiny...but aimed at school mums, bling dudes and the uber rich....
back to the Q
Like throw away those pretty plastic low riding front and rear bumpers........... they get ripped off on day 1 offroading
Either improve or protect the rear departure angle, to get over obstacles, I think every D2 offroaded here has either ripped off bumbers and or dented rear quarter panels..........so either shorten the tail or add sliders.
get away from your own specific coding of the ECU's there is no stealership in venezuela for example, if I get a fault in the ABS I'd have to ship my vehicle to brazil to get it looked at......
even now I'm in Cali and have to drive for 2 hrs just to get my codes read...and suffer $ 100 charge ontop of the gas and the 4 hrs time
if it was standard OBD 2 I could get service anywhere.
Super slick traction control is fine....where's the off button ?
I don't want automatic where's the manual option ?
Diff locks as a factory option.
Make the wheel arches a tad larger so that you can easily add larger tyres......and not require the sawsall.....
ORC1 said:
Land Rover has changed over the years. In the late 90's the dealers would sponsor off road events to moderate trails. Along came the Freelander and the trails reflected the reduced capabilities of the vehicles. Now I'm not sure they sponsor any events. It is a reflection of LR moving away from it roots to a different market segment. The move to rebadge products as LR1,2,3,etc feels like an attempt to be a Lexus. Does Land Rover really want to be another Lexus/Infinity/whatever? If so then don't pretend to be the true off road brand. That would be Jeep.
As for off road several years ago the dealer and factory rep sponsored a trail ride. This was pre-Freelander days when the dealer events were to moderate trails. We had DI's, new DII's with 'traction control' and Defenders with and without lockers. There was one particular hill that demonstrated the fallacy of traction control. The hill was relatively steep with loose rock and gravel. The open diff DI's struggled and had to pick the right line. Same with open diff Defenders. The locked Defender walked right up, engine revs moderately above idle to provide enough power to move 3000+ lbs up the hill. The DII with traction control tried several times and eventually had to use momentum to 'run' the hill. The traction control would kick in as wheels began to spin. It would brake the wheel that lost traction, then brake the other wheels, back and forth until forward momentum ceased. The only way the DII could make the hill was with speed. Not a very good solution. You could tell the factory rep was cringing when the DII had to make repeated attempts. The Disco III/LR3 is a DII traction control system with software 'profiles'. A minimal step.
The use of reverse ABS with software profiles, traction control, is a poor choice for real 4WD systems. I disagree that LR will 'wipe the board'. Low cost software algorithms will never replace locking differentials and driver control. You simply cannot anticipate ALL off road environments. The drivetrain design point and option list should include full locking, that is if want to claim you can 'wipe the board'. I've owned Jeeps, IH Scouts and LR's. Traction control is a low cost 4WD system and only fools the uninformed.
While I understand the move to more computers and control subsystems, there areas where they make sense and where they don't. For non-critical functions have at it. Add communications backbones for data collection, maintenance and troubleshooting. I'm ok with that. Where they don't make sense is for 4WD systems. I'm uncomfortable relying on sophisticated computer systems for off road functionality. Computers and sensors fail, period. I doubt you can fit redundancy into the vehicles manufacturing cost budget.
Weight. Why did the LR3 gain almost a 1000 lbs? I'm not asking for unibody. I like frames. But adding all those 'features' is not necessary.
Size the powerplant/drivetrain for altitude and towing. The right equation is torque+economy, not hp.
Navigation systems. Eliminate them. My cell phone has mappinig. If I want more I'll buy a GPS of my choice. Yours will be functionaly out of date as rapid as the next Garmin/Magellan product cycle.
Embrace the aftermarket. They are the ones that create energy around a brand/product. Design vehicles that enable the accessory market. People like to customize. It builds momentum. The factory simply doesn't have the creative bandwidth to match the aftermarket. Don't try. Enable them.
Realize that the days of $50K+ products hitting significant volumes are gone. Asset inflation temporarily supported that pricing model. A Discovery IV will need to hit a lower price point than the Discovery III. The price increase from the DI/DII to the DIII was in the range of 25%. Adding 25% to the DIII will raise the price to the $60K range. LR and Tata need to sit down and revisit that price trajectory.
Gangster styling and rap are dead. Do not go down that styling path.
Loz,
What do you expect will happen to the newer RRS or MKIII trucks when they are 20 years old? As you can see, many of the folks here like to offroad the older trucks - another year or so and every DI will be minimum 10 years old. All RRCs are 14 years old or more. The newest NAS spec Defenders are 11 years old (and cost a small fortune b/c of the rarity).
People are happy with the performance of the newer trucks offroad but unless you have a support crew with diagnostics and enough computers to support WWIII, it can't be relied upon for a long distance trip offroad. And, let's be honest, if one can afford to purchase a newer Range Rover - you probably aren't wheeling it. There are certainly exceptions but most 2005+ Rovers will go through an owner or 2 before it sees a serious trail. Will we be able to keep it on the road by then?
I'm not saying that no one can afford a new one or that no one likes them - as irrational as Rover owners are, rational thought creeps into our minds. Who wants to wants to shove a tree branch into hides of a $70k+ truck or fill the floor with swamp water?
Look at the P38 (which is the best looking truck Rover ever made IMO). This truck was the beginning of the end. We are starting to see more people who use them but what percentage of them keep the EAS when they get serious about wheeling? Not many. The climate control/HVAC system, the alarm system, the computers...
From stories I've heard the LR3 is a very capable vehicle. From all accounts, the terrain response system is marvelous, but what happens if something fails? Can I fix it with a wrench or do I need a laptop with software that I can't buy?
I don't think many people expect you to design the next Range Rover with solid axles and a frame (although it would certainly make me happy). In this Brave New World, a $70k+ luxury SUV must have a navigation system with a 6" screen which also tells you where the nearest "Crate & Barrel" store is located and that you need more washer fluid (for which the drive should immediately return to the dealer). That is a necessary evil and is the typical current target buyer for Rover.
What I want is an alternative - possibly an option package similar to the "Hunter" from 1991. The differences from the standard model would need to be more extensive than the Hunter - coils, fabric seats (think G4), FEWER computers and MORE mechanical bits, maybe even manual seats/windows. Getting this many changes on the same vehicle may not be realistic - that's where the other option is an alternative model. Now we start talking Defender but you've heard enough about that already.
One last thought: you are likely to get some brash opinions here - I hope you don't get upset but keep in mind that we ALL love Rovers - that's why we're here.
David
What do you expect will happen to the newer RRS or MKIII trucks when they are 20 years old? As you can see, many of the folks here like to offroad the older trucks - another year or so and every DI will be minimum 10 years old. All RRCs are 14 years old or more. The newest NAS spec Defenders are 11 years old (and cost a small fortune b/c of the rarity).
People are happy with the performance of the newer trucks offroad but unless you have a support crew with diagnostics and enough computers to support WWIII, it can't be relied upon for a long distance trip offroad. And, let's be honest, if one can afford to purchase a newer Range Rover - you probably aren't wheeling it. There are certainly exceptions but most 2005+ Rovers will go through an owner or 2 before it sees a serious trail. Will we be able to keep it on the road by then?
I'm not saying that no one can afford a new one or that no one likes them - as irrational as Rover owners are, rational thought creeps into our minds. Who wants to wants to shove a tree branch into hides of a $70k+ truck or fill the floor with swamp water?
Look at the P38 (which is the best looking truck Rover ever made IMO). This truck was the beginning of the end. We are starting to see more people who use them but what percentage of them keep the EAS when they get serious about wheeling? Not many. The climate control/HVAC system, the alarm system, the computers...
From stories I've heard the LR3 is a very capable vehicle. From all accounts, the terrain response system is marvelous, but what happens if something fails? Can I fix it with a wrench or do I need a laptop with software that I can't buy?
I don't think many people expect you to design the next Range Rover with solid axles and a frame (although it would certainly make me happy). In this Brave New World, a $70k+ luxury SUV must have a navigation system with a 6" screen which also tells you where the nearest "Crate & Barrel" store is located and that you need more washer fluid (for which the drive should immediately return to the dealer). That is a necessary evil and is the typical current target buyer for Rover.
What I want is an alternative - possibly an option package similar to the "Hunter" from 1991. The differences from the standard model would need to be more extensive than the Hunter - coils, fabric seats (think G4), FEWER computers and MORE mechanical bits, maybe even manual seats/windows. Getting this many changes on the same vehicle may not be realistic - that's where the other option is an alternative model. Now we start talking Defender but you've heard enough about that already.
One last thought: you are likely to get some brash opinions here - I hope you don't get upset but keep in mind that we ALL love Rovers - that's why we're here.
David
solid axles are the only realistic modification to the LR3 that I can say. The rest would be marketing, how about bringing some of the cheap stuff over here, manual transmissions, coil springs instead of the air suspension (with solid axles.)
If those two things could happen, the aftermarket would take care of the rest and in my opinion the image would be restored.
If those two things could happen, the aftermarket would take care of the rest and in my opinion the image would be restored.
L
lrcb40
Guest
Make the LRX concept a reality!
Bring an LR3 based, with diesel option, Defender style truck to the USA - shorter wb, poss air sprung solid axles and sort out the crappy parts system to flush out the supply chain so that the same issues don't recur and piss off customers (even 'bleed green' ones like me) Having the same issue on a truck that causes $1500 to fix is absolutely and completely unnecessary. LAnd ROver has systems to flush bad parts out of the supply chain - I don't expect to have to pay for when that fails..........
Otherwise I love Land Rovers - keep doing the right thing and NEVER compromise the brand!
Bring an LR3 based, with diesel option, Defender style truck to the USA - shorter wb, poss air sprung solid axles and sort out the crappy parts system to flush out the supply chain so that the same issues don't recur and piss off customers (even 'bleed green' ones like me) Having the same issue on a truck that causes $1500 to fix is absolutely and completely unnecessary. LAnd ROver has systems to flush bad parts out of the supply chain - I don't expect to have to pay for when that fails..........
Otherwise I love Land Rovers - keep doing the right thing and NEVER compromise the brand!
It needs a diesel in it, torsional AWD, with 4WD, front/rear diff lock. Minimal electorinics on the "off road" version. High wading capability. Solid axles or mogs.
Also, some friendly dealership service techs, not people that blame me for all of the warranty issues and service bulletins becasue i put offroad tires on it, which is why I bought a new Jeep instead of a rover and get aftermarket parts as often as possible, instead of from the dealer.
Also, some friendly dealership service techs, not people that blame me for all of the warranty issues and service bulletins becasue i put offroad tires on it, which is why I bought a new Jeep instead of a rover and get aftermarket parts as often as possible, instead of from the dealer.
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I'm of the school of thought that 'beggars can't be choosers'. Simply put, bring the D90 and 110 back, but with diesels. I agree with others' sentiments of bigger tyres, etc but those are mods we can do to specifically suit our needs. Everyone has different preferences. I see from a 10,000 ft point of view a demand for Defenders on a limited production basis in the US with a selection of both gas and diesel engines to suit both sides of the fence.
lrcb40 said:
Oh that was already done a while ago with introduction of the Freelander and the exit of vehicles like the DI. The LR that many of us know and love is already dead. 1999 was the last year LR had a heart beat in my opinion.
Loz:
First, thanks for posting up and asking for feedback. Obviously, you've seen some great responses so far.
This statement leads me to believe that you do not understand what folks who genuinely offroad these vehicles really want. We do not care if we can "wipe the board" against other vehicles out there off the showroom floor. This is the kind of marketing hype that actually turns us off. You guys need to understand that we don't view it as a competition against Jeep and Toyota, etc.
We want vehicles that are engineered to provide reliability, functionality and flexibility over the long haul and those of us with mechanical skills would like to be able to maintain and modify the vehicles ourselves. Some of us like to do the work, and because of the poor dealer support here, in some cases, it's a necessity.
Thanks again, HTH.
-Mike
'99D2, '95RRC, '67IIa
First, thanks for posting up and asking for feedback. Obviously, you've seen some great responses so far.
Loz said:
This statement leads me to believe that you do not understand what folks who genuinely offroad these vehicles really want. We do not care if we can "wipe the board" against other vehicles out there off the showroom floor. This is the kind of marketing hype that actually turns us off. You guys need to understand that we don't view it as a competition against Jeep and Toyota, etc.
We want vehicles that are engineered to provide reliability, functionality and flexibility over the long haul and those of us with mechanical skills would like to be able to maintain and modify the vehicles ourselves. Some of us like to do the work, and because of the poor dealer support here, in some cases, it's a necessity.
Thanks again, HTH.
-Mike
'99D2, '95RRC, '67IIa