Seems the most straitforward move to make next. Will the 4.0 ECM in my 96 Discovery be able to make the adjustment to the 4.6?
GEMS 4.6 into D1 discussion
- Thread starter crown14
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from what I have heard you need to upgrade the chip to accomidate larger injectors and displacement. RPI is your source on this, I have been following threads since I plan on doing the same thing with my 95 once the cylinder pressure drops another 10psi.
Hi all,
Hope you don't mind I am adding an additional question to this thread. I too own a 96 Gems 4.0 Disco D1 and am trying to read up on swapping a 4.6 in there.
I have been reading the threads on this forum avidly for several weeks now. Quick background, three weeks ago I traded in my 1990 Jeep Cherokee for a 1996 Disco D1 5-speed. I spent 6 months looking for it and finally found my disco with the 5-speed up in CT (I live in NY)!
In anycase, I have gone over the whole truck, replaced the rotoflex, full fluid change, waxoyled it, replaced exhaust, brakes etc so now its running absolutely great.
My one caveat is the 4.0 power. While it is certainly adequate I would like to have just that little bit more. I recently had it loaded with 4 grown adults (i'm 6'5 at 250lbs and i'm one of the lighter ones) and full load and the truck was NOT peppy, even with the 5-speed. Hence my interest in getting the 4.6.
I have read everything so far i could on the 4.6 swaps and it seems you can go one of three ways. 1. get a used one out of a P38, buy a new block say from Atlantic British/ECR etc or order one from the UK.
My questions are as follows:
1. Unless I'm mistaken the 4.6 is a stroked 4.0. Does anyone make a stroker kit for these blocks or is it unique that you have to get the aforementioend 4.6 block?
2. I have looked at ECR, AB and overseas and the blocks start at over $4,000 which is not the cheapest. Are there any other sources? it would be great to keep the total cost of the swap down inthe 5-6 grand range.
3. As I do not have the skills to replace the engine (the most I have done in the past is install a vortec supercharger on my 5.0 mustang back in 2000) I was looking at classic 4x4's up in Connecticut. I had the service done over there by Dawson and they were reasonably priced, very knowledable and enthusiasts of land/range rovers. I was thinking of having them do the swap. any other reommendations or thoughts on who you would have replace the block in the new england area?
4. As i have a 96, i think i have the 4.0 with the gems and distributorless ignition system. does it matter which 4.6 block goes in or are they all interchangeable?
Thanks in advance for being patient with a newbie and I look forward to all constructive input and critiquing of my questions and thoughts!! :seeya:
Hope you don't mind I am adding an additional question to this thread. I too own a 96 Gems 4.0 Disco D1 and am trying to read up on swapping a 4.6 in there.
I have been reading the threads on this forum avidly for several weeks now. Quick background, three weeks ago I traded in my 1990 Jeep Cherokee for a 1996 Disco D1 5-speed. I spent 6 months looking for it and finally found my disco with the 5-speed up in CT (I live in NY)!
In anycase, I have gone over the whole truck, replaced the rotoflex, full fluid change, waxoyled it, replaced exhaust, brakes etc so now its running absolutely great.
My one caveat is the 4.0 power. While it is certainly adequate I would like to have just that little bit more. I recently had it loaded with 4 grown adults (i'm 6'5 at 250lbs and i'm one of the lighter ones) and full load and the truck was NOT peppy, even with the 5-speed. Hence my interest in getting the 4.6.
I have read everything so far i could on the 4.6 swaps and it seems you can go one of three ways. 1. get a used one out of a P38, buy a new block say from Atlantic British/ECR etc or order one from the UK.
My questions are as follows:
1. Unless I'm mistaken the 4.6 is a stroked 4.0. Does anyone make a stroker kit for these blocks or is it unique that you have to get the aforementioend 4.6 block?
2. I have looked at ECR, AB and overseas and the blocks start at over $4,000 which is not the cheapest. Are there any other sources? it would be great to keep the total cost of the swap down inthe 5-6 grand range.
3. As I do not have the skills to replace the engine (the most I have done in the past is install a vortec supercharger on my 5.0 mustang back in 2000) I was looking at classic 4x4's up in Connecticut. I had the service done over there by Dawson and they were reasonably priced, very knowledable and enthusiasts of land/range rovers. I was thinking of having them do the swap. any other reommendations or thoughts on who you would have replace the block in the new england area?
4. As i have a 96, i think i have the 4.0 with the gems and distributorless ignition system. does it matter which 4.6 block goes in or are they all interchangeable?
Thanks in advance for being patient with a newbie and I look forward to all constructive input and critiquing of my questions and thoughts!! :seeya:
The 4.6 is a 'stroked' 3.9/ 4.0 (same capacity).
Although the 3.9 ECU may work it will not be ideal. If you get an RPI chip how much will that cost? Also if you can wield a spanner and have space and a method of lifting
out the engin do it yourself.
There is no hokus pokus to an engine swap and they will both just bolt straight on.
Whilst your doing that, bin the Lucas/ Bosch ECU and use Megasquirt. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than
a new chip and will allow you to do your own diagnostics (real time) as well as tuning.
It requires more effort and thought, but will be infinately more rewarding and isn't
really a complex project.
Although the 3.9 ECU may work it will not be ideal. If you get an RPI chip how much will that cost? Also if you can wield a spanner and have space and a method of lifting
out the engin do it yourself.
There is no hokus pokus to an engine swap and they will both just bolt straight on.
Whilst your doing that, bin the Lucas/ Bosch ECU and use Megasquirt. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than
a new chip and will allow you to do your own diagnostics (real time) as well as tuning.
It requires more effort and thought, but will be infinately more rewarding and isn't
really a complex project.
3
300bhp/ton
Guest
I can't see a major problem just tuning.rripatti said:
The cheapest option for a 4.6 is to buy one from a recked P38 either in the US or here in the UK and ship it back.
Or you could mod the 4.0 they can be stroked to 4.8 litre and with some decent heads, exhaust and a cam they will run a lot better. Heck even forget the stroke kit and just do exhaust, heads and a cam on the 4.0 litre and it'll really wake it up.
The crank, rods & pistons (as a set) from a 4.6 engine can be inserted into a 4.0 block, as the bare block is the same. You may have to verify that the crank throws don't touch the casting and maybe grind off some aluminum to avoid that, but the block is the same.
For the ECU, it could be flashed with the P38 RR (GEMS) program for correct (well, closer) fuel mapping for the 4.6l engine size...
For the ECU, it could be flashed with the P38 RR (GEMS) program for correct (well, closer) fuel mapping for the 4.6l engine size...
Hi All,
Thanks for all the information so far! From what I am hearing so far is that there are seveal ways around to getting some additional pep from the truck. My usage of the truck is 90% street 10% offroad (my fiancee's family has a summer house in Maine that's on dirtroads with trails surrounding the property that we visit regularly).
1. Change the gearing from the stock 3.5xs to 3.91 or 4.10. Is this done from the axles perspective or the transfer case? Secondly, I noticed that at 80mph I'm already approaching 3,000 rpm and wander if going steeper in gears will make the highway driving more taxing?
2. Regarding heads, cams and exhaust (i already have the borla catback), my only concern with this setup is how much improvement will I see in terms of average horspower under the curve as opposed to peak hp gain? My primary goal is to increase torque from idle to 4 grand. Will adding a top end to the 4.0 block significantly increase the torque? Has anyone done this and what has been teh verdict?
3. Okay in terms of the block, I will search on this thread for used 4.6 block links to see what I can find, but if you all have a source, that would be great! For the new block, are there any specific sources other then AB and ECR in the USA that would be worth me checking? Then England sourced blocks would be absolutely awesome (if they can stroke these engines to 5 liters and 300+hp in the TVR's, i'm sure they can make an awesome block for my disco!) but I'm afraid to see what the shipping costs would be!
4. Regarding doing it myself, my main concern is that I don't consider myself to be sufficiently mechanically adept to tackle this by myself. The other problem is that I don't have a space to do it as I live in Brooklyn NY . I might bring it to my folks place in Westchester and do it in the garage, but if an indie tuner can do it for a fair price, I
would be interested in bringing it to them.
Thanks again guys and I really appreciate all your input and help.
Best
Raul
Thanks for all the information so far! From what I am hearing so far is that there are seveal ways around to getting some additional pep from the truck. My usage of the truck is 90% street 10% offroad (my fiancee's family has a summer house in Maine that's on dirtroads with trails surrounding the property that we visit regularly).
1. Change the gearing from the stock 3.5xs to 3.91 or 4.10. Is this done from the axles perspective or the transfer case? Secondly, I noticed that at 80mph I'm already approaching 3,000 rpm and wander if going steeper in gears will make the highway driving more taxing?
2. Regarding heads, cams and exhaust (i already have the borla catback), my only concern with this setup is how much improvement will I see in terms of average horspower under the curve as opposed to peak hp gain? My primary goal is to increase torque from idle to 4 grand. Will adding a top end to the 4.0 block significantly increase the torque? Has anyone done this and what has been teh verdict?
3. Okay in terms of the block, I will search on this thread for used 4.6 block links to see what I can find, but if you all have a source, that would be great! For the new block, are there any specific sources other then AB and ECR in the USA that would be worth me checking? Then England sourced blocks would be absolutely awesome (if they can stroke these engines to 5 liters and 300+hp in the TVR's, i'm sure they can make an awesome block for my disco!) but I'm afraid to see what the shipping costs would be!
4. Regarding doing it myself, my main concern is that I don't consider myself to be sufficiently mechanically adept to tackle this by myself. The other problem is that I don't have a space to do it as I live in Brooklyn NY . I might bring it to my folks place in Westchester and do it in the garage, but if an indie tuner can do it for a fair price, I
would be interested in bringing it to them.
Thanks again guys and I really appreciate all your input and help.
Best
Raul
3
300bhp/ton
Guest
If it's low end grunt you are after then a supercharger might be a better bet, an Eaton Roots style running moderate to low boost will give a nice fat torque curve. I think there have been several kits over the years. It will require a tune though.
Hmm, will the head gaskets take the added pressure of the blower? I'll search on what kits are out there. one of the nice things about a head/cam job or stroker is that it maintains the simplicity of a naturally aspirated engine.
3
300bhp/ton
Guest
I would think the gaskets would be fine, on stock internals you won't want to be running high boost anyhow.
3
300bhp/ton
Guest
BTW - if you are serious about modding the Rover V8 this is the forum to join: http://www.v-8.org.uk/forum/ It's a UK based forum but has a wealth of V8 know how.
Hey thanks for the website!
Yeah, its less about modding the rover v-8 to extreme (i have another car for that) but more just to get a little extra oomph when i'm fully loaded and driving up to Maine from New York at highway speeds.
cheers!
Raul
Yeah, its less about modding the rover v-8 to extreme (i have another car for that) but more just to get a little extra oomph when i'm fully loaded and driving up to Maine from New York at highway speeds.
cheers!
Raul
From who has a blown 4.6..
The 4.0 (GEMS) ECU will work and adjust just fine with a 4.6. In a case where you use a 14cux ECU (has a distributor) I would put in a factory 4.chip and call it done. We have seen better improvments with that chip than with a Super chip or whatever..
I also ran a Superchip with my 4.6 and there was some improvement.
Now that I have the blower on it the Superchip adds too much ignition advance and does not seem to allow enough retard for the ignition to back off when the engine starts pinging (around 5-6 pounds of boost)I will soon be putting a stock chip back in the ecu. (GEMS)
I have added 24 pound injectors which helped that a bit.
The power is almost stupid when it's cold and damp out with 4.1 gears and 35's. I can get some nice "chirps" and get the fronts smoking with the parking brake on.
In the end I will loose the Supercharger and I am currently working with a shop on a 5.0 with some big valve heads..
The 4.0 (GEMS) ECU will work and adjust just fine with a 4.6. In a case where you use a 14cux ECU (has a distributor) I would put in a factory 4.chip and call it done. We have seen better improvments with that chip than with a Super chip or whatever..
I also ran a Superchip with my 4.6 and there was some improvement.
Now that I have the blower on it the Superchip adds too much ignition advance and does not seem to allow enough retard for the ignition to back off when the engine starts pinging (around 5-6 pounds of boost)I will soon be putting a stock chip back in the ecu. (GEMS)
I have added 24 pound injectors which helped that a bit.
The power is almost stupid when it's cold and damp out with 4.1 gears and 35's. I can get some nice "chirps" and get the fronts smoking with the parking brake on.
In the end I will loose the Supercharger and I am currently working with a shop on a 5.0 with some big valve heads..
Hi Keith!
Thanks very much for your reply. As I have the distributorless ignition (the coil packs are behind the intake plenum) its good to know that the ecu will adjust to the extra displacement without having to add a chip.
i'm curious, how are you getting the 5.0 displacement? is it from extra stroke or are you having to bore out the block and put bigger liners?
if you don't mind me asking, which shop are you working with and is there an estimate on the 5.0 block? your thoughts on reliability? though i'm sure my r-380 will break first
thanks again everybody for helping me!
Thanks very much for your reply. As I have the distributorless ignition (the coil packs are behind the intake plenum) its good to know that the ecu will adjust to the extra displacement without having to add a chip.
i'm curious, how are you getting the 5.0 displacement? is it from extra stroke or are you having to bore out the block and put bigger liners?
if you don't mind me asking, which shop are you working with and is there an estimate on the 5.0 block? your thoughts on reliability? though i'm sure my r-380 will break first
thanks again everybody for helping me!
As it turns out a stroked 4.6 crank and a bigger piston will net the bigger displacement.
I've been fiddling with the numbers for several years and have been struggling to get the time to finish the project, soooo. I have a friend with a Rover shop that can do the work and he will finish it up for me, with other (head related) mods that should at least make the heads flow properly. Unfortunatly buick heads flow like a coffee stirrer and without decent flow no amount of mods will get you the gains you would expect from similar mods to a SBC!
That said the key is flow and after fooling around with the littlest buick they need a lot of work to keep up... Hopefully this does it! Otherwise I'm going Chevy of Diesel..
I've been fiddling with the numbers for several years and have been struggling to get the time to finish the project, soooo. I have a friend with a Rover shop that can do the work and he will finish it up for me, with other (head related) mods that should at least make the heads flow properly. Unfortunatly buick heads flow like a coffee stirrer and without decent flow no amount of mods will get you the gains you would expect from similar mods to a SBC!
That said the key is flow and after fooling around with the littlest buick they need a lot of work to keep up... Hopefully this does it! Otherwise I'm going Chevy of Diesel..
Hi Keith, that sounds awesome! If the 5.0 displacement works, will it be a project that would be fairly repeatable? As in could you buddy at the rover shop duplicate the setup for other customers?
just curious in what i can do. For example at East Cost Rovers, they have 5.2 liter Rover V-8's but cost 11k+:ack:
currently my budget for a short block around the 4k mark. (amazing how expensive these engins are considering that my ls6 in my vette short block can be had for much less)
just curious in what i can do. For example at East Cost Rovers, they have 5.2 liter Rover V-8's but cost 11k+:ack:
currently my budget for a short block around the 4k mark. (amazing how expensive these engins are considering that my ls6 in my vette short block can be had for much less
)
Seems like I heard the Bosch injectors flow better than the GEMS ones, but I am not sure about that.