California Prop 8?

antichrist

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SGaynor said:
But to play devil's advocate: At what age is "legal?" Used to be a lot younger, 12?
Oh come on. That's like arguing that we can't let 18 year olds get married because it's a slippery slope. Next thing you know we'll be letting 12 year olds get married. No matter what one suggests as the limits to a law, someone can always come up with a "slippery slope" argument why it shouldn't be allowed.
 

varova87

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landrovered said:
Give me one example of an absolute right or wrong and I would venture that you could construct a situation where that does not apply.

Good question, but the problem I see with this is that my absolute truths are going to differ from yours. As a Christian, I see the 10 commandments as truth. Sure, "do not kill" is debatable in the sense of war, capital punishment, etc. These things took place in the New Testament after the laws were given. In my view, "Do not commit adultery" is absolute. When is it right to cheat on your husband or wife? Never. I don't care if 30 years from now, society says its OK to do so, I'll never hold to it.

Relativism, or situational ethics, is dangerous to me. Why? Because we have limited knowledge. How can someone with limited knowledge decide what is right or wrong? This is why I choose to live by truths set by someone with infinite knowledge - God. But again, that is my view, not yours. (This is where most Christians insert "I'm right you're wrong") That pisses me off.

Another problem: every religion has its own set of these truths. For example, a Christian might say, ?Jesus saved me and I'm going to Heaven.? To the Christian this may be an absolute truth. Imposing this statement on others is where this absolute truth, to the Christian, becomes debated. While many may agree that the Christian believes absolutely that Jesus is his Lord, they are unlikely to agree that Jesus is everyone's Lord is an absolute truth. When a person?s absolute truth is extended to all others, it can be viewed as a philosophical statement of exclusion. Those who do not endorse the absolute truth of another are either pitied or attacked.

However, proper functioning societies and communities often rely on certain agreed-upon truths. For example, the US holds rape and murder as crimes and uses language to define rape and murder. Failure for a society to define such terms, and agree upon their definition could result in chaos. Again - what if society changes it's views to include rape as acceptable? No thanks...

Absolute truths may be hard to come by, and difficult to agree upon, but you ahve to admit some amount of truths are generally required for a properly functioning society. Whether these truths are absolute or universal is a matter that has been and will likely continue to be debated.
 

realdeal

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antichrist said:
So you're saying that if 51% of people who vote say Land Rover owners should not be allowed internet forums you'd say, "That's democracy, you win some you lose some." :rolleyes:

How old are you? I really find it difficult to believe an adult here would not understand how our form of government works.
Not talking about differing opinions, but not understanding the fucntions of the three branches of government is pretty bad.

Using the term democracy loosely to cut to the chase, if that's what you mean. Of course we're a republic for a reason, and I don't know all of the qualifications of how proposition 8 makes it to the ballot in the form it was presented in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I'm no US government/civics scholar. If there's something you'd like to point out, just do it. I've been wrong before ;) and I learn new things every day (as I'm sure we all do).
 

landrovered

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Varova,

I don't see where we have any major areas of disagreement.

The question was pertaining to the process by which individuals determine right from wrong. Collectively we agree on acceptable ideas as a society and our laws reflect that collective opinion.

We all know that one can remain moral and break the law, just as one can remain legal and be immoral.

One is an internal barometer the other a social one.
 

varova87

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landrovered said:
Varova,

I don't see where we have any major areas of disagreement.

The question was pertaining to the process by which individuals determine right from wrong. Collectively we agree on acceptable ideas as a society and our laws reflect that collective opinion.

We all know that one can remain moral and break the law, just as one can remain legal and be immoral.

One is an internal barometer the other a social one.


I believe the biggest difference is I get my truths from a book, written by someone who i believe sets the moral absolutes and "rights and wrongs" for this world. My process for determining right from wrong is not based on what is currently acceptable, or what the CA constitution says. The process by which I determine right from wrong is what the Bible says, in the correct context. There are examples in the Bible where Jesus corrects the Pharisees and Sadducees as to what is right and wrong.

Again, my belief is society does not determine what is right and wrong, absolutely. Sure, society will make laws saying "A is right, B is wrong." But my beliefs based on my religion will hold to say "No, A is not right, and neither is B."

On a lighter note...Did I see your truck in the SAE pictures?
 

landrovered

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I bought mine accidentally.

I was sport bidding on ebay and was very surprised when I won the auction. I put a bid on it and forgot about it until I got the email a week later. It was a salvage and the listing was kind of wierd and I guess nobody else saw it.

Since it was my dream vehicle I went through with it. I am glad I did.
 

antichrist

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realdeal said:
Using the term democracy loosely to cut to the chase, if that's what you mean. Of course we're a republic for a reason, and I don't know all of the qualifications of how proposition 8 makes it to the ballot in the form it was presented in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I'm no US government/civics scholar. If there's something you'd like to point out, just do it. I've been wrong before ;) and I learn new things every day (as I'm sure we all do).
The point is, if a law is unconstitutional, it doesn't matter if 99.9% of the people voted for it. It's the duty of the supreme court to strike it down.
 

realdeal

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Sep 8, 2008
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antichrist said:
Prop 8 is different and is an ammendment to the constitution, which may or may not be unconstitutional.

And by your own words, Proposition 8 as of 11/12/08 has not been struck down as unconstitutional.
 

antichrist

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realdeal said:
And by your own words, Proposition 8 as of 11/12/08 has not been struck down as unconstitutional.
True, but that doesn't mean sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. It may still be ruled unconstitutional since it removes rights a certain group of people had previously. I've no idea how that plays out.
 

No Pvmt

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Feb 7, 2006
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Originally Posted by Chris-St Louis
How come those who preech Tolerance and the least tolerant?

Probably comes from extreme frustration with people who want to take away certain rights, not because they are being harmed, but because they have perverted the faith they profess to hold and feel they have the right to tell others how to live.

I could well see myself with that level of anger if I were part of a group protesting an amendment to the constitution to allow police to enter my home any time they choose and search it without a warrant.

I'm not saying I agree with what they did, but I can understand their level of anger.
Just like how most people here would feel seeing someone Westboro Baptist Church.
__________________
Tom Rowe

So, what your saying is that 9/11 was okay because we deserve it “Probably comes from extreme frustration with people who want to take away certain rights, not because they are being harmed, but because they have perverted the faith they profess to hold and feel they have the right to tell others how to live.” -Tom Rowe
You may think that violence is okay or equality is only for the few. That is your prerogative, but this is the reason we have laws. This “Country” was founded on religious freedom. Get a clue and get over yourself. Prop 8 made it, if would not have I would have to live with it.
One can only conclude by your remarks that upholding traditional values (marriage, religion) is not important to you. Again that is your prerogative. I say good for her, she had the balls to stand up to people twice as big as her. This is the beauty of this great country. That is one example of “We the people!”

Are you saying all homosexuals are intolerant? Be careful what you answer.
Aren't Christians supposed to be loving and tolerant?- Tom Rowe

Who's to say that she is "Christian," or gay? You...
 
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Ronnie

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No Pvmt said:
Who's to say that she is "Christian," or gay? You...

That's one of the nut jobs from Westboro Baptist Church. Although I don't much care for her brand of Christianity, she does claim to be one...
 

montanablur

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So, it seems to have come down to religion... Personally I'm more fond of the God loving brand than the God fearing brand of religion that seems to be on sale at discount prices these days..

I think the late George Carlin summed it up best in his piece about religion...

Youtube version
... Because it really is that good...

"When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!"
 

p m

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Sinuhe, here you enter the argument - which you will lose - about the futility and vanity of any organized religion. Many people seem to seek comfort in the toned-down version of belief in God, where one can personify God and his relatives and disciples.
 

RBBailey

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Bravo! Love the Carlin bit.

In fact, literally two minutes ago, my wife and I were just wrapping up the evening by turning on the TBN and laughing at the blood-sucking, maggot-pigs telling people that to help build "God's future generations" they needed to call "right now" and give at least $50.

Makes my blood boil. Makes my skin crawl. You may not believe in hell, but I bet you believe these people are going there in the next life, and you'd be right.

Here's the thing. Christians are supposed to be loving. First. Foremost. A Christian who is not loving is not a Christian.

However, tolerance is a cop-out. Tolerance is like saying, "I love you just enough to ignore you when you do something wrong."

Jesus was not tolerant, he was patient and loving. There is a HUGE difference between tolerance and patience. God is patient with me, but he is intolerant of the stupid things I do, he cannot accept me as the sinner I am -- he was so intolerant of the stupid things that I do, that he died to get rid of them for me.

An intolerant person who does not have love is as hateful as a racist. But an intolerant person who has love is someone who changes people's lives.