Tom Woods Driveshaft failure

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
15,617
838
58
La Jolla, CA
www.3rj.org
Mike_Rupp said:
My front Tom Woods was on my brother's truck for at least 20k miles and on mine for 30k miles or so, with nothing done other than greasing.
Change in technology or parts supplier, maybe?
 

kennith

Well-known member
Apr 22, 2004
10,891
172
North Carolina
I haven't had a lick of trouble out of my GBR yet. Well, aside from greasing the center ball thing. That is a pain in the ass, but at least I have a center ball to grease now. I need to figure out a better way to do that.

Cheers,

Kennith
 

jrose609

Well-known member
Feb 10, 2009
2,162
0
Boise, ID
ptschram said:
Whatcha looking for Jason?

I can get the Terra-Firma caster correcting arms, I've got them on my '88 RRC.

PT. PM Sent thanks!

Timmy!!!!!!! said:
Yup. Although the springs I got I am pretty sure I got over 2in. of lift (crossing my fingers it is 3in.). I put a d2 driveshaft on and the radius arms and wow! My disco drives so much smoother and straighter now. On another note I think my measurement on the front spring perches from top to bottom was 13in.

Thanks, Timmy. I'm thinking I need to do the same as you did with the radius arms.
 

peter sherman

Well-known member
May 10, 2004
3,072
0
Fake Forest, IL
Mike_Rupp said:
I couldn't imagine any worse of an off-road vehicle aftermarket item to sell than driveshafts. For driveshafts to have a decent life, the driveline angles have to be dealt with, yet it's apparent that most people don't have a clue how to optimize those angles, let alone make an attempt at it.

If the driveshaft fails as a result of a misalignment, the chump will automatically blame the driveshaft company. What a nightmare. My front Tom Woods was on my brother's truck for at least 20k miles and on mine for 30k miles or so, with nothing done other than greasing.

LOL!
 

KevinNY

Well-known member
Dec 28, 2004
2,789
1
54
Waxhaw,NC
I've got my angles dialed in by using an A arm extension and custom length rear links from Rovertracks and still had the lower u joint wear out very quickly. The issue is the U joints, the replacement I put in is still tight after 10k miles.
 
D

D Chapman

Guest
I've got the RT links, too, and I'm having the same issues as you. I have been very slow to say anything as I'm still fucking with shit on my truck. But I think the RT links are a bit too long and you can't get the pinion pointed up far enough. Best I can do is 2.75* and the t-case is at 4*. The lower joint suffers.
 

KevinNY

Well-known member
Dec 28, 2004
2,789
1
54
Waxhaw,NC
I took a bunch of measurements for Keith and he did the figures and made mine to length with some spacers to fine tune it. The Designa coil chassis doesn't measure out like a D-90 or Disco.

I have no idea what I am looking at in your avatar but I feel dirty and am going to go take a shower now.
 

Timmy!!!!!!!

Well-known member
Jun 7, 2004
4,585
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38
Bourbon Street
www.facebook.com
I don't know if anyone else has noticed this but with my RT rear links without any spacers I can't grease my u-joint next to the T-case. granted my rear swaybar somehow flipped and actually increased the angles it is something I have noticed.
 

dmarchand

Well-known member
Apr 20, 2004
383
0
Massachuchuchusetts
GBR's aren't immune to premature failure. I just had my GBR shafts rebuilt this past winter. Put maybe 2K miles on them and the front DC is failing. I put a new TW on as it was my spare so we'll see how that holds up while my other shaft heads back to Bill.
 

Tom Wood

Member
Oct 28, 2008
15
0
Well, it?s been almost a year since I?ve posted on the Disco Web forum. I have to wonder if it has something to do with the change of seasons or some other weird phenomenon.

First of all I would like to thank those who have tried our product and those who have attested to our successes and to those who have attested to our committment to customer service when we have been, initially, less than successful.

I will be brief in my posting (for me anyway) and try to address the three basic issues I see in this string. They are; our universal joints, center ball failures and vibrations. Please take the time to read through this posting and see if you?re interested in a free trip to our shop.

I learned a long time ago that you cannot judge a universal joint strictly by appearance as one person seems to have done by stating our universal joints are "crap." Our universal joints are, more or less, a reverse engineered Spicer universal joint with the grease fitting relocated for ease of service and increased strength.

Without a metallurgical analysis and thorough testing for surface and through hardness testing, it is near impossible to distinguish inferior product from that of good quality. I have had this testing performed on our universal joints and have the documentation to prove it. I have also had destructive testing done and our universal joint has proven to be stronger than the common 5-153X, 1310 series universal joint that most other companies use. Our seals are exactly the same as the Spicier universal joint in every respect other than the color. These seals are designed to purge out old grease and contaminates when greasing.

We complete the assembly of all our CV socket flanges with the installation of the centering ball. We had used a well known manufacturer of this ball kit for many years with very good success. It has been within the last six months or so that we began to notice an inordinate amount of premature failures for reasons that cannot be explained by any reason other than a defective product. I believe our long time supplier had done something with either materials or manufacturing processes that caused this. It did not take long before I sought and found another manufacturer which could supply the highest quality seat I need. It is unfortunate for me and those customers who received defective product, that this particular problem needed to manifest itself in the field. We are having very good success with the part as supplied from the new manufacturer.

I am very confident in our balancing equipment and procedures along with the repeatability of the balancing. I know of no other drive shaft shop that maintains our strict procedures in this regard. Yes, I occasionally receive complaints about vibration issues that did not exist with the stock drive shaft. It is only on a rare occasion that this proves to be a balance issue. In these infrequent instances, I have to acknowledge that bot man an machine make errors.

If the root cause of the vibration issues were a problem with our equipment or procedures, I would expect this to happen with nearly all the drive shafts we produce. I have one customer who has purchased 70 Land Rover drive shafts in the last year (thanks Will). I really don?t recall if there were more than a couple people who claimed to have a vibration after installing our drive shaft. I do recall one customer of his who did complain. For him, we paid the return freight and issued a refund.

So why do some vibrate and others do not? I can only theorize since I do not work on any vehicles in our shop. The following are excerpts from an E-mail I sent to the customer mentioned in the previous paragraph: .....Where the vibration seems to be throttle position sensitive I would lean towards a torsional vibration as a result of geometry problem. If this were strictly an imbalance the problem should get worse (to a point) with higher speeds and the throttle position would have no bearing as the drive shaft is spinning at the same speed (RPM) at a given vehicle speed regardless of transmission gearing or throttle position....Sometimes the factory original drive shaft runs smooth but our drive shaft does not. I believe there may be a couple of reasons for this. Primarily the additional mass/weight of our drive shaft is a factor. It is a simple matter of physics that dictates force cannot be generated without mass. Less mass equals less force/vibration. Couple this with the inherent play in a ball bearing like used in the front out-put of the transfer case or even a slightly worn bearing and or a loose out-put flange, our drive shaft will have more vibration than would a lighter, stock drive shaft....

Our drive shafts are built to be the strongest which is practically possible. The slip yoke itself wheigs nearly six ounces more than a comparable cast iron yoke. Our CV center housing and CV socket flange are made from heavier steel components also. Couple this with the heavy wall tube we use in our drive shafts it wouldn?t surprise me if our drive shaft weighed a couple pounds more than our competitors and substantially more than a factory drive shaft.

I would be pretty certain I could overcome most of these infrequent vibration problems by building a lighter drive shaft. But then I risk getting "beat up" for building a weak drive shaft. It is a "Catch 22" for me. Rest assured, I have NEVER selected a component based on cost over quality.

We build well over 10,000 drive shaft per year with very few problems. I must accept that occasionally we will have a problem. I fell pretty good about things when I think about our success ratio being better than NASA though. I try to look at the problems we do have as opportunity disguised as obstacles and work towards resolution for the betterment of all.

I would like to use this opportunity to put this "bad balance" question to bed once and for all. I would like to extend an invitation to someone from this site to come out and visit us, witness our build and balance procedure then truthfully tell everyone what you?ve seen. I am willing to pay round trip air fare (coach) from any major airport in the continental US. I will also provide two nights hotel accommodations in Salt Lake City or Ogden, Utah, a steak and lobster dinner at one of Ogden finest restaurants and give $100.00 allowance for car rental. Heck, we?ll even build a drive shaft for you while you?re here and give it to you free of charge.

The qualifications for this are; you must have been a member of discoweb.org for more than one year and have contributed regular postings in a professional manner. If you would like to take me up on this please contact me at my E-mail address of tom@tomscds.com

Tom Wood.

PS.
One person had a question about greasing the center pivot point. From my web site WWW.4XSHAFT.COM and this particular link; http://www.4xshaft.com/maintenance.html you will find a photo of the servicing and a reference to the tool needed. You amy also find my "essay" on grease usefull from this link; http://www.4xshaft.com/Grease.html
 

stolenheron

Well-known member
May 1, 2008
1,861
0
Hattiesburg, MS
damn, i'm impressed with the post Tom. Not many people will come on a site and stand by there product like that and extend such an offer to a total stranger.

i've just recently slapped one of your DS's on my truck just 600 miles ago and regardless of whether it fails or not your customer service is famous for quality and will keep me coming back.
 

p m

Administrator
Staff member
Apr 19, 2004
15,617
838
58
La Jolla, CA
www.3rj.org
ratboy said:
The qualifications for this are; you must have been a member of discoweb.org for more than one year and have contributed regular postings in a professional manner
i'm out. i cant do professional manner.
LOL, me too. Tom, this is a very restrictive policy!
A good write-up, thanks.
 

gmookher

Well-known member
Oct 30, 2004
5,201
0
Grand Canyon State
Very helpful post there Mr Woods, thank you.

I'd love to fly out, and take pics of your facility, but I dont think thats necessary and may not be the best way to spend your marketing dollars.

Your product is a fine one and has a great reputation. I bought it, twice, one rear and one front.

That said, my front shaft was purchased new from you at last years rally, you shipped it to moab for me. The shaft is awesome, but the UJs, and I mean all 3 of them did develop more play than I was comfy with in just 7,000miles. seemed a bit premature.

I called your shop and the service you offer is excellent, you offered to swap out the UJs fro free if there was gonna be any play and that you'd return ship it free.

Thats awesome.

I may be wrong, but IMHO the Spicer branded UJs I have run with identical geometry on my truck lasted over 20k miles, greased every time I'm under the truck changing oil.

The centering ball is not as snug a fit as I think my last shaft, which was a rebuilt OE, but it seems fine by me and a local driveline shop.

My question is, would you offer the option to sell a shaft to the rover community with spicer UJs if in our experience they last longer?

I dont know yet, time will tell. I felt if it was one UJ, its likely it happened on the trail, etc. Stuff happens.

I dont know if premature wear on the centering ball can cause the UJs to wear, all 3, faster than normal, maybe thats something you can tell me more about..and perhaps something I should have looked at again, maybe by you.

Thanks
Gem
 
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MUSKYMAN

Well-known member
Apr 19, 2004
8,277
0
OverBarrington IL
once again Tom steps up with a direct answer to all the concerns voiced by a community of people that go out and beat up the products they buy from him.:applause:

My shake on all of this.

1) some people have poor geometry so the shafts dont perform as well as they could if the driveline angles were corrected.

2) not all trucks will end up with the same driveline angles with what seem to be the exact same aftermarket parts installed.

3) the large number of soft bushings in the suspension of a land rover coiler tend to wear in a uneven way based on how people use their trucks. When the bushings are worn out or torn they allow the driveline angles to change under load. The amount of movement is much more then you would expect and can effect the way components in the driveline wear and are loaded.

In the end I have been using shafts from Tom Wood going back a long way and I know the commitment he has to producing the best product and backing it with the best warranty. I am running a pair of the adapterless shafts on my D1 with a 5" lift and think they are the best shafts I could bolt on my truck.

I would love to come see the shop Tom :D but clearly I spread to much smack around here:banghead:
 

rmuller

Well-known member
Apr 28, 2004
4,452
1
Northern NJ
www.njlr.org
I think if anyone should be flown out to Tom Woods to report on the shop, it should be Will Tillery... as someone who sells the largest amount of TW shafts, he should have the best understanding of the process.