P38 Reliabity- trail

Ownership experiance over last 13 months and 20k miles - including aprox 1500 off road trail miles. The P38 does not have the best reputaton for reliability and off road ability ( trying not to jinx myself ) but for my purposes it has been great, especially with the help of D-web archieved technical advice which has been invaluable, as well as providing the motivaton to "feel the love" on those late nights in the garage.
I have owned the 97 P38 since is was a year old, primarily as a grocery getter, and occassionally for sking and camping. Last year at 98k the engine was replaced with a used 4.6 and i thought i would cover my reliability/ maintenance issues encountered during the last year. Maybe even encourage a few others to use their Rovers more off road. (in 0000 trail miles apart from LR events i only ever encountered one other Rover, a new RR on Coyote Canyon, Anza Borrego. IMO the trails i completed could have been done in any stock Disco or RR. I did several hundred trail miles before i even started modifying the truck.

Replaced the air springs with OME shocks & springs when the air suspenson failed and i drove home 300 miles on the bumpstops.
CEL(intermitant missfire) which took forever to pinpoint turned out to be a worn crank shaft possiton sensor caused by damged teeth on the flywheel. not before i replaced the coil pack, plugs and Ht leads. Only afterwards did i find out several others had experianced the same problem.
Brake accumulator replaced
Rear silencer rusted, so i removed it, only slight increase in noise level
Steering damper replaced twice- (don't even bother with the Rancho item, and AB advertises a Bilstein unit but none in stock) trail damage both times.
Fuel pump replaced as a precauton at 100k , (fuel gauge has not worked since which is unfortunate as i have a fuel tank guard and removing them is a pain for one person and a trolley jack- going to cut an access panel when i get round to it)
Replaced alternator, when on its last legs it produced some very intresting warning lights and poor running- used a booster pack / charger to boost the battery on the drive back from Utah. This killed the battery and i now have a Odessey 2150.
Sunroof mechanism failed, interior door handle release broke, fuel filler switch and clip both failed.
Broke 2 sets of sway bar dissconnects, now using much stronger JKS items model PN 3100
I destroyed the rear diff carrier in Moab and replaced it with a stronger carrier and TruTrack LSD ( which i would now like to replace with an ARB and put the TruTrack in the front axle) I would also like to install a LT-230 Transfer case and would appreciate any advice on installing one in a P38.
Belts, hoses, thermostat and radiator replaced as a precautionary meassure. Easier to do at home rather than on the trail. Check the short hose to the fuel tank filler as mine had deteriorated badly- (of course its a unique LR hose diameter and not available at the local parts store)
Brake pads and rotors replaced, rear caliper was leaking and replaced. Brake hoses are now stainless steel extended items.
Engine oil changed 7 times, axle & gearbox oil twice, air filter changed 7 times. The stock air intake is less than ideal and i really hope someone brings out a raised air intake. Fuel filter and spark plugs changed twice.
Tires - stock michelins were surprisingly good off road, tried some Mickey Thompson Baja Claw 30" bias ply tires, great off road, but difficult to balance, caused steering vibraton and then i managed 2 flats in 30 minutes in Death Valley, and to cap it off i slammed the tail gate shut and put the high lift handle through the window. I now run 285/75 R16 which do rub a little. I have a set of 19" RR street tires, take off's - cheaper than 4 new tires. ( although i have not used them in 6 months)
I expected some drive train vibraton issues with the lift, but each truck seems to be different in this regard, i have been fortunate. The handling is definitley worse, but a compromise i can live with.


Issues i still have to address : sagging headliner, inoperative cruise control, alarm fault ( moton sensor), washer hoses/ jets all round (headlamp, windscreen, rear tailgate ), oil leak from pressure switch/ relief valve - requires new engine front cover. Most serious is exhaust gas in the coolant, no overheating yet, crossing my fingers that it is a head gasket issue -which i now view as a maintenance item- rhopefully not an issue with the block. Anyway i'll find out when i do a top end overhaul.

Scariest on road moment- shredding a rear tire at 80mph on the way to the Solihull event in Moab.
Scrariest off road moment- having a motorcycle ridden by a LAPD officer hit the Rover head on, rider flew over the hood. Fortunately no serious injuries, gave me a chance to practice my first aid.
Best trails to date - Moab
Most difficult obstacle - The squeeze on Pinyon Mountain Road
Most dangerous, attempting to recover a H1 which had slid off the trail in Arrowhead, snow and ice, very slippery, nearly pulled the rover over the edge, only saved by having a recovery strap anchored to a tree- i now also have chains. It took the help of 2 jeeps to get the hummer back on the trail.
Best trip - Baja Mexico following part of the Baja 1000 route.
Most annoying- being complemented on my Land Cruiser.

For my purposes the P38 is close to the ideal Rover. I have some experiance with most other models. I am not blinded to the trucks limitations and faults, but for the trails i did in the last 13 months it has been great. Even modified it still makes a great interstate cruiser, comfortable for 3 people plus a dog and all the gear, yet still does okay on the variety of trails i enjoy. Mechanically relatively straight forward, GEMS is almost manageable, solid axels and coil springs. Not everyones ideal Rover, but regardless i really like the P38 and it has always got me home without resorting to a flat bed. (so far that is)

Trails completed in last 13 months, a lot of soft roading, no hard core/ extreme trails. Estimated at 1500 plus miles photos at spaces.msn.com/conalmack

Liebre Mtn trail 30 miles, Grass Mtn 20 miles, Santa Clara Divide 15 miles, Rincon Shortcut 25 miles, Pinyon Ridge 10 miles, Cleghorn Ridge 14 miles, SugarPine Mtn Trail 16 miles, Willow Creek 10 miles, Holcomb Valley 25 miles, Ord Mtns 30 miles, Daggett Wash 15 miles, Rodman Mtns 40 miles, Main Divide Rd 25 miles, Palomar Divide Road 20 miles, Santa Ysabel Creek 10 miles, Grapevine Canyon 15 miles, Coyote Canyon 26 miles, Fonts Point 10 miles. Tahoe National Forest Bowman Mtn Trail 20 miles, Saddleback Mtn 23.5 miles, Sierra Buttes 19 miles. Colorado SCLR trip to Moab - Bull canyon 8.7 miles, Long Canyon 7.5 miles, Gemini Brdges 13 miles. Colorado guided trip Bill Burke Flat Top Wilderness 2 days aprox 75 miles, Breakenridge and Leadville trails unsure of mileage. Big Pine Flat Trail 20 miles, 2N17X 2 miles, Pilot Rock 9 miles, Willow Creek 8 miles, Fish Canyon 13 miles, Bismark Canyon 4 miles, John Bull 7 miles, Pinyon Mtn Rd 30 miles, Clark Summit 30 miles, Cottonwood Canyon 45 miles. Solihull event Moab - Metal Masher 22 miles, Poison Spider 12 miles, Hells Revenge 9 miles, Steel Bender 10 miles. Sandstone Canyon 35 miles, Arroyo Seco del Diablo Trail 20 miles, Red Canyon 13 miles, Bradshaw Trail 80 miles, Mojave Road 125 miles, Cima Dome 19 miles, Grass valley 55 miles, Trona Pinnacles 30 miles, Mengal Pass 55 miles x2 =110 miles, Pleasant Canyon 25 miles, Titus Canyon 25 miles, Cerro Gordo Rd 25 miles. South Coast ridge Road 35 miles, Pismo Beach Sand Highway 15 miles. Bates Canyon 7 miles, Sierra madre Road 60 miles, Buckhorn Ridge 8 miles, Nordhoff Ridge Trail 27.5 miles, Cuyama Peak 25 miles, Kohen Lake 20 miles, Rancheria Rd 30 miles, Solo Peak Rd 12 miles, Buck Rd 4 miles, Buck Rock fire Lookout Trail 12 miles, Cherry Falt trail 10 miles, whitaker forest trail 4 miles, Deliah Fire Lookout Trail, Davis Flat 16 miles, Piute Mtn Rd 30 miles, Jawbone Canyon 30 miles. Two Day training Bill Burke Anza Borrego 47 miles. SCLR Baja 3 day trip aprox 180 off road miles. Mileages aproximate but i think it comes out to over 1500 trail miles.

SCLR - member yes. http:www.sclr.org/
Forgot a couple of mechanical issues, cracked and replaced an exhaust manifold and replaced the engine mounts after one broke.
In the process of trimming the rear bumper, again. The www.rockrover.com/
would be the way to go.

"awesome write up. i am a p38 owner as well, I am still working on modding it up in order to perform well off road, but when i do some intense off roading i will report how my p38 did"

I was actually trying to impress that the P38 in standard form is still a capable trail vehicle, as i have heard and read the same thing many times about people waiting to upgrade their truck. Driver technique, experience and skill are IMO even more important. I am not referring to my skills or lack of them, but i have been on several trails with a wide variety of LR's and what stands out more is the ability/skill of the driver.

Solid work. Looks like you're having fun and breaking stuff!"

The broken rear diff was a result of driver error- too much wheelspin. The carrier is not the strongest. I do now carry front and rear axle assemblies and cv's with the hub carriers attached- but i would prefer to work of my driving technique and not have to use them.

Do you still have the standard bumpers?
And how has the front spoiler coped with offroading or has this been (intentionally or unintentionally)
modified?

What have you done for recovery points?"

Standard front bumper finally meet its demise on the John Bull Trail see http://spaces.msn.com/conalmack I have now chopped the lower porton with the fog lights off. The factory winch mount does reduce approach angle, ground on a few rocks but does provide some protection and seemed to be the best option for mounting front recovery points. The rear is a receiver shackle - which works as a "skid" on steeper climbs.

BTW, you can get the odd size fuel filler hose at a marine supply store. that's where i got mine.
That's useful info, i use them for electrical stuff sometimes, that never occurred to me, i tried several parts stores, ended up ordering it from the dealer.

Wow, you took it through the Squeeze?
How did it do through Window Smasher and Heart Attack Hill?

With the help of some excellant spotting, it is tight. Window smasher more technical, lifted truck, sway bars dissconnected, it took several tries to get the right line and avoid breaking a window. Heart attack hill in comparison presented no problems.

Cheers

Re: P38 Reliability- trail

Reliability / repair / maintenance update.

Currently running my 3rd engine. I am certain the 2nd 4.6 had a slipped liner when i installed it, and was only confirmed after i replaced the HG and still had exhaust gas in the coolant. Time to build up my own 4.6 with the pinned / top hat liners.
Modified the Panhard links to increase axle articulation.
Pro Comp Xterrian 285/75 tyres are beginning to "chunk" but i have not had a flat on the trail (dust in the bead aside) Directional tread pattern a pain with 5 tyres and rotating them, tyre of choice would be 255/85 BFG's Km2's. The Pro comps still have just enough clearance with RUD chains fitted.
Panel for spare cut so that 33' fits upright in rear load space
Plastic rear bumper cover and trim panels replaced twice after trail damage (2nd hand parts)
CD changer, window regulator (failing again drivers door) and cruise control ecu replaced, Thanks Will especially for the free bonus selection of Cd's still in the changer
Several brake overhauls, pads currently EBC, stock LR rotors front and some free cheese grater rear rotors.
Lost count of oil changes, running synthetic and changing every 4k to 5k.
Installed a front truTrak
Tom Woods DDC front drivehaft
Replaced front OME springs with DS OME 764's
Replaced fuse box after HVAC light up like a christmas tree
Replaced VC fan clutch (i thought these usually failed in the fully engaged position)
Several radiator flushes, changed coolant and replaced hoses, thermostat and serpentine belt.
Fuel gauge fixed, access panel in rear for fuel pump
Headliner still sagging
Tweaked and cracked a weld on the "nerf" bar on the rover specialties sliders on Deer Valley trail Northern Ca
Horrible 9.5 Milemarker winch continues to work, steel cable replaced. (synthetic line and a faster/ better quality winch are on my to do list)
Slight oil leak (damp)at front axle hub
Track rod ends replaced
Oil leak from oil pressure switch again(this weekends job genuine LR part $0.81 but they normally only come in packs of #)
Air filters, pollen and fuel filter all replaced regularly
Spark plugs usually use NGK 2756 and changed every 10 to 15k
Transmission and transfer case fluid changed twice a year currently Mobil 1 synthetic
Diff fluid changed twice a year used Castrol 75/90 but will try Lucas HD gear oil
oil filter K & N 3001 or Mobil 1 m204
Blend motor on HVAC beginning to stick again, replaced motors several years ago when I did the o rings.
Brake fluid flushed
Interior temp sensor replaced
Faulty generic water pump replaced
Re welded rear southdown diff guard twice (once it fell off fortunately on the street 200 yd from EE)
Catalytic converters rattle but just passed Ca smog, (my previous 4.6 passed as a 4.0, but this time it had to be entered as a 4.6 in order to pass)
Lucas fuel additive used at oil changes, average 10 to 11mpg in heavy LA traffic and between 14 and 17mpg highway fully loaded with RTT

Memorable trips
Shaver Lake Snow run and camping with NCLR, 7 miles in 6 hours, and was one of only 2 LR's that did not need winching or pulling that weekend.
Golden Spike at last years NR,
Deer Valley and Slick Rock again with NCLR

http://spaces.msn.com/conalmack

Re: P38 Reliability- trail

p m said:

Rover Mac - I am blown away by the mileage account. FWIW, John Bull is 3 miles long, and, IIRC, Pinyon Mountain is about 15 to the Squeeze, and it's a short drive to Fish Creek wash.
I'd break it into categories, however. It's not fair (to you, too) to lump fire roads together with more technical trails.

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To be fair, the post on the mileage was in response to a post several years ago when another individual claimed he had 1000's of off road miles in a year, which was a subject of some debate several years ago at the time of my original post. The point was that to do over a 1000 off road trail miles, considering how short some trails are you would have to do quite a few trips, mileages were approximate and were from when i left a paved road so trails like John Bull which after running it 5 times now i know is only a couple of miles, same for Pinyon mountain, many of those trails were run in conjunction with other trails and finding a good spot to camp. My mileage report was deliberately conservative.

As for breaking it down into categories , great idea but not one i will be doing just yet anyway.
The main point behind the post was that the P38 can be reliable if maintained, and was more of a response at the time to people always saying how they would love to go on trail runs but needed Tyres, lift, body armor etc, LR's in stock trim are more than capable of doing the vast majority if the trails i ran. many of those trips were solo.
My latest post was more of an update on the P38 and the issues i had encountered with my RR with is now at 140K
I have done quite a few trails since my original post a couple of years ago, some fire roads, some more technical (for a P38 ).

Justin_Sherfy said:

Where is Shaver Lake?

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Northern California

Re: P38 Reliability- trail

pdxrovermech said:

In all honesty, in my opinion the P38 was the worst rover ever made(hey at least the Freelander had a niche), but I'm glad to see somebody using it like a true Rover deserves to be used.

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Now that hurts, worse than a freelander
Worst Rover i ever drove was the Italian Diesel engined RR