As a couple of you know, I lived in Newtown until I moved to FL. Both my children started school there. I have many friends and family there after being in Newtown for 10 years and Fairfield County for most of my life. Fortunately, no one I know has yet been personally touched by this tragedy but the town is extremely close-knit and people are devastated. For those lucky enough to have children, hold them close(r)... Be thankful they are with you and safe this morning.
Newtown, Conn.
- Thread starter Tugela
- Start date
I am surprised you all have not mentioned one of the key things that "might" be an issue at hand as well.............the press! They jump all over tragic events in our society and exploit them as much as possible. Like it is a race for a prize or something. Too bad the whack jobs out there see this stuff occur and it plants a seed in their minds. Perhaps the press needs to rethink what they do when tragic events occur.
I don't think any one of us really has a real solution for stopping such tragic events. Gun control is impossible. There are just far too many out there to go backwards now. And I know I won't give mine up if it comes to that. Then again, the only high capacity weapon I have is a 22.
Perhaps schools need to do something. How many times growing up did you have fire drills in school? When was the last time you heard of school children being burned in a fire at school? It doesn't happen. In the case of what happened yesterday, why not come up for a plan for such an event, even though it most likely will never happen too!
I'm sorry, but someone in the school needs to be the sheepdog! It would have saved lots of little lives yesterday.
I don't think any one of us really has a real solution for stopping such tragic events. Gun control is impossible. There are just far too many out there to go backwards now. And I know I won't give mine up if it comes to that. Then again, the only high capacity weapon I have is a 22.
Perhaps schools need to do something. How many times growing up did you have fire drills in school? When was the last time you heard of school children being burned in a fire at school? It doesn't happen. In the case of what happened yesterday, why not come up for a plan for such an event, even though it most likely will never happen too!
I'm sorry, but someone in the school needs to be the sheepdog! It would have saved lots of little lives yesterday.
d1driver said:
To correct your last couple statements, my wife is a teacher. After columbine teachers and faculty have been 'trained' or instructed what to do in a situation like this, and the teachers and faculty did jut that. They herded all the children into closets and safe spots and locked the doors. The teachers did not no let anyone in the locked door unless the person slid the badge under the door and lastly told the person that came to the door "if you are an authority you should have the keys to unlock the door".
Unfortunately, the school my wife teaches in and the elementary school my children go to do not have closets or 'safe rooms' due to being built in the sixties...back when shit like this wasn't an every day threat.
So the teachers and faculty DID do what they were trained to do.. and twenty children were still murdered.
To somehow suggest teachers or faculty could have saved more lives because nobody was the "sheepdog" is ignorant, and offensive to the teachers and faculty that DID every thing in their power to protect those children.
Hey I know what, we give guns to children, teachers, and faculty that way every law abiding citizen has a gun to defend themselves against the law breakers, everyone shoot everyone just like the days of the Wild West. Everyone carry a gun, that way when the sane person that bought the gun can use his legally law obiding weapon tomorrow when he goes bat shit crazy.
Hey I know what, we give guns to children, teachers, and faculty that way every law abiding citizen has a gun to defend themselves against the law breakers, everyone shoot everyone just like the days of the Wild West. Everyone carry a gun, that way when the sane person that bought the gun can use his legally law obiding weapon tomorrow when he goes bat shit crazy.
The state is ill, grief stricken and emotionally drained.. it makes me sick to my stomach that anyone could take out children like this.. someone taking there own life is one thing... but to take young innocent children, excited for the holidays is wrong and pure evil. When i first heard it on the radio my heart sank, and to hear some of the stories makes everyone feel both furious at the individual and the society that let it happen... I hope the families can make it, the kids find peace, and the ones who have made it cope as best they can and never have to face this kind of evil again. I have been serving the country for 8 yrs now, deployed 4 times, and it makes me so sad to think of the country we are protecting from foreign threats are letting assholes like this slip through the cracks to attack our own.
Not sure about that, Mike. I've been within seconds of the "everyone shoot everyone" situation - just because somebody thought that the previous platoon on a guard duty hasn't cleaned the shitters well enough. Sixty people with AK74s, loaded and with safety off.seventyfive said:
That would've made some news even in good old Soviet Union.
peter,
i know i shouldn't have posted anything in this thread, but this hits close to home for me and to be honest i am absolutely sick and fucking tired of hearing rationalizations defending weapons. the most common rationalization that is used is 'if more law adding citizens had a gun, this could have been prevented or more lives would have been saved'. i hear it almost every day at work.
NOW if everyone that had a concealed carry permit went thru close quarter combat training, then possibly a concealed carrier could quickly and safely shoot the offender in the chest or head...but that takes training and anyone trained to do that will tell you you have to train often to stay sharp.
just so there is context for my statements, i believe gun control is just that. you control the way a certain weapon is procured and control the way a certain individual is deemed responsible enough to own one. i by no means suggest anyone telling me i can not own my rifle or someone coming to my door and telling me to surrender it when there is no justifiable reasoning.
you and anyone else that had to handle any weapon for their job can attest to the requirements that had to be met to handle them.
i was fortunate enough to handle all kinds of ordnance and weapons in the navy. BUT before you are certified to handle live ordnance as a team member you had to pass a certification board, which most anyone can pass. then to be certified as a safety observer, team leader, so on there are more certification boards, more NCIS background checks, then you are selected as a special weapons team member which means not only board certifications, more NCIS background checks, but now security clearances need to be approved, which means now they need more background checks to determine if you have the 'character' to be trusted in handling special weapons. shit, i was almost denied because my uncle had warrants out for drugs and weapons charges, but they finally dismissed that after determining i had no ties with him.
i have held security clearances outside the navy as a civilian. i have been a character witness for several friends who obtained clearances for their work.
im not special, these are just what 'they' do to anyone in uniform or plain clothes govt employees when they are tasked with handling certain weapons or certain information.
there are checks that check the checks, so hopefully some mentally unstable or social deviant doesn't have the opportunity to handle live ordnance, ordnance includes small arms, automatic weapons, mines, missiles, bombs, explosives, etc....
just because someone wears the uniform doesn't mean they are mentally stable to handle something that can blow up, explode, or be propelled at something with deadly force.
so if these kinds of background checks are performed with military or law enforcement personnel then why not with private citizens? whats the waiting time or intensive background checks for someone that wants to purchase a bushmaster? can't you even buy one in the parking lot of a gun show?
understand this, I'm not saying disarm people, I'm not saying make more laws to limit the ability for a 'law abiding' citizen to purchase a weapon. I'm suggesting we do a better job getting to know the person that feels the need to own a bush master.
lets assume this guy had the weapons illegally. where did he get them? so far reports are saying his mother had them, a law abiding citizen...maybe before she legally bought a rifle that holds a magazine we should have said wait a minute we need to do some more checks on you, your known associates, your family, etc. her being a mentally stable individual and law abiding citizen should have had no issue what so ever to allow those checks be performed.
its interesting that any time you mention gun control how people interpret that as removing weapons from people. lets assume ALL weapons at some point were bought legally by law abiding citizens, then why do so many of them end up in the hands of sociopaths and mentally unstable people? because proper gun control is not enforced because as soon as you mention it the NRA and certain gun owners start using the second amendment as a shield and gun control becomes an anti american catch phrase. the NRA and certain gun owners start using the tired ass rationalization 'if more law abiding citizens were armed this tragedy could have been prevented or limited to only 3 or 4 children murdered.
like i said, I'm not an anti gun person by any means but this situation has me looking at the whole gun control thing thru different eyes now. this could happen to my wife or children, because most like and unfortunately some sick fuck will most likely copy it and take it to a whole different level. i don't see the solution being arming more people so, even in schools, churches, shopping malls, etc (places that are intended to be safe and welcoming) this can be retaliated against.
i know i shouldn't have posted anything in this thread, but this hits close to home for me and to be honest i am absolutely sick and fucking tired of hearing rationalizations defending weapons. the most common rationalization that is used is 'if more law adding citizens had a gun, this could have been prevented or more lives would have been saved'. i hear it almost every day at work.
NOW if everyone that had a concealed carry permit went thru close quarter combat training, then possibly a concealed carrier could quickly and safely shoot the offender in the chest or head...but that takes training and anyone trained to do that will tell you you have to train often to stay sharp.
just so there is context for my statements, i believe gun control is just that. you control the way a certain weapon is procured and control the way a certain individual is deemed responsible enough to own one. i by no means suggest anyone telling me i can not own my rifle or someone coming to my door and telling me to surrender it when there is no justifiable reasoning.
you and anyone else that had to handle any weapon for their job can attest to the requirements that had to be met to handle them.
i was fortunate enough to handle all kinds of ordnance and weapons in the navy. BUT before you are certified to handle live ordnance as a team member you had to pass a certification board, which most anyone can pass. then to be certified as a safety observer, team leader, so on there are more certification boards, more NCIS background checks, then you are selected as a special weapons team member which means not only board certifications, more NCIS background checks, but now security clearances need to be approved, which means now they need more background checks to determine if you have the 'character' to be trusted in handling special weapons. shit, i was almost denied because my uncle had warrants out for drugs and weapons charges, but they finally dismissed that after determining i had no ties with him.
i have held security clearances outside the navy as a civilian. i have been a character witness for several friends who obtained clearances for their work.
im not special, these are just what 'they' do to anyone in uniform or plain clothes govt employees when they are tasked with handling certain weapons or certain information.
there are checks that check the checks, so hopefully some mentally unstable or social deviant doesn't have the opportunity to handle live ordnance, ordnance includes small arms, automatic weapons, mines, missiles, bombs, explosives, etc....
just because someone wears the uniform doesn't mean they are mentally stable to handle something that can blow up, explode, or be propelled at something with deadly force.
so if these kinds of background checks are performed with military or law enforcement personnel then why not with private citizens? whats the waiting time or intensive background checks for someone that wants to purchase a bushmaster? can't you even buy one in the parking lot of a gun show?
understand this, I'm not saying disarm people, I'm not saying make more laws to limit the ability for a 'law abiding' citizen to purchase a weapon. I'm suggesting we do a better job getting to know the person that feels the need to own a bush master.
lets assume this guy had the weapons illegally. where did he get them? so far reports are saying his mother had them, a law abiding citizen...maybe before she legally bought a rifle that holds a magazine we should have said wait a minute we need to do some more checks on you, your known associates, your family, etc. her being a mentally stable individual and law abiding citizen should have had no issue what so ever to allow those checks be performed.
its interesting that any time you mention gun control how people interpret that as removing weapons from people. lets assume ALL weapons at some point were bought legally by law abiding citizens, then why do so many of them end up in the hands of sociopaths and mentally unstable people? because proper gun control is not enforced because as soon as you mention it the NRA and certain gun owners start using the second amendment as a shield and gun control becomes an anti american catch phrase. the NRA and certain gun owners start using the tired ass rationalization 'if more law abiding citizens were armed this tragedy could have been prevented or limited to only 3 or 4 children murdered.
like i said, I'm not an anti gun person by any means but this situation has me looking at the whole gun control thing thru different eyes now. this could happen to my wife or children, because most like and unfortunately some sick fuck will most likely copy it and take it to a whole different level. i don't see the solution being arming more people so, even in schools, churches, shopping malls, etc (places that are intended to be safe and welcoming) this can be retaliated against.
bri said:
other than in the military I've personally never had the need to shoot something like a modern semi auto shotgun. thats why i live where i live, if i wanted to have the need to own or shoot a semi auto shotgun i would have moved back to south jersey years ago.
Mike - I agree with pretty much everything you said. Still, I don't see a clear solution to this problem, and I think it goes beyond the easy availability of firearms.
I don't know which weapon did the nutjob use - judging by yesterday's media reports, it was one or two semi-auto handguns. Would a non-auto handgun save a few lives? Likely. Would a ban on semi-auto handguns save all lives? Probably not.
There should be a culture of understanding of how precious a human life is in the society. In the past, church and religion served this purpose - not as much now. I'd rather keep this ideology secular - but I don't know if there is a way to convey this message without a concept of God.
I don't know which weapon did the nutjob use - judging by yesterday's media reports, it was one or two semi-auto handguns. Would a non-auto handgun save a few lives? Likely. Would a ban on semi-auto handguns save all lives? Probably not.
There should be a culture of understanding of how precious a human life is in the society. In the past, church and religion served this purpose - not as much now. I'd rather keep this ideology secular - but I don't know if there is a way to convey this message without a concept of God.
First of all I would like to say this is a tragedy, and while I don't have some solution I do believe there has been a drastic cultural shift over the past twenty years, resulting in a population that has become alarmingly desensitized to violence and the value of human life. Before we, as a society, begin to compare our culture to those of other nations with access to the same media/games/what ever, need to realize that we ARE different from others.
I am sorry but 99.9% of the people I know that have a concealed carry permit have never been to a two-way shooting range, nor do I trust their ability to act appropriately to protect innocent life in a safe and prudent manner. The government spent obscene amounts of money training me to hit my target with any number of firearms, even to train others to do the same. The first time I found myself on the business end of a muzzle, I fell back on hundreds of thousands of rounds of training and drills, and I still had a difficult time dropping my target. After a few days of it I got used to the feeling of rounds coming at me while shooting, and I learned to make hits as I was trained before. It is a TOTALLY different world from shooting hanging pieces of paper, I can assure you of this. I can also assure you that a culture with guns in every home that thrives on as much hate, arrogance, and self riotousness as ours, is a very scary place to live.
Gun control does not disarm law abiding citizens, it controls the types of weapons that are introduced into the unknowns of the open market. Yes criminals will acquire arms through illegal means, but those weapons were purchased "legally" at one point in their life... so someone out there was breaking the law. Just because the majority of gun sales are done in a legal fashion to legal owners doesn't mean shit one if there is that one guy doing straw sales. If the privilege to own firearms is contingent on me keeping written records that are spot-inspectable by the BATFE agents, or having a simple background check by the FBI and local law enforcement before I can buy certain arms, then so be it, I have nothing to hide, and I have nothing to worry about. If we lifted all control on gun purchases/ownership do you honestly believe that those who intend on doing harm to others will somehow stop obtaining arms? If you allowed every person who desired, to carry a loaded concealed handgun, do you honestly believe that violence and crime would cease? Do you realize that those who use firearms for violent crime typically do not fear a "well armed population" as many have no fear of death?
It is not simply a magazine fed semi-auto rifle, it is a rifle specifically designed to be an efficient and effective killing weapon. Make no mistake sir, Eugene Stoner designed the AR platform to kill, not to hunt game, not to punch paper, not even to look cool on your favorite forum dressed up with your newest tacticool gear... he designed it TO KILL. He designed to put large quantities of well-aimed fire onto target at ranges between 5 and 600m; <5m, time to fix bayonets. He designed it with an easily changed, large capacity magazine, to ensure the user has plenty of rounds in reserve to engage multiple targets quickly. The round was chosen for its inherent accuracy, kill probability, but most of all because you could stuff more of them in a smaller magazine. This was so the the average soldier/Marine could carry more rounds with less weight, making sure he could put more rounds on target with less fatigue. How is that not an "assault rifle?"
The PEOPLE in this country need to teach responsibility and morality to their children, and as a community ensure each child is held to high standards within the greater society. Stating that getting "back to God" will somehow fix the problems at hand is a feeble attempt at demonizing those who choose not to believe in Judeo-Christian rhetoric. As if those who do not follow the teachings of religious institutions are the only ones who do evil to others, despite history's lessons on the contrary. I have witnessed atrocious acts done in the name of religion. Please understand that I am not attacking anyones choice to follow their own path, I am simply saying that the last thing this republic needs is to force faith onto the population; thus removing choice. Let us not forget there are a number of other amendments beyond 2nd that some are so quick to toss around.
...and my thoughts go to the families effected in the area, and those who now question the security of their children throughout the nation. I also hope the morons on the news and politicians don't take away from their situation to move towards their conservative, or liberal, agenda.
jgdisco2 said:
I am sorry but 99.9% of the people I know that have a concealed carry permit have never been to a two-way shooting range, nor do I trust their ability to act appropriately to protect innocent life in a safe and prudent manner. The government spent obscene amounts of money training me to hit my target with any number of firearms, even to train others to do the same. The first time I found myself on the business end of a muzzle, I fell back on hundreds of thousands of rounds of training and drills, and I still had a difficult time dropping my target. After a few days of it I got used to the feeling of rounds coming at me while shooting, and I learned to make hits as I was trained before. It is a TOTALLY different world from shooting hanging pieces of paper, I can assure you of this. I can also assure you that a culture with guns in every home that thrives on as much hate, arrogance, and self riotousness as ours, is a very scary place to live.
Gun control does not disarm law abiding citizens, it controls the types of weapons that are introduced into the unknowns of the open market. Yes criminals will acquire arms through illegal means, but those weapons were purchased "legally" at one point in their life... so someone out there was breaking the law. Just because the majority of gun sales are done in a legal fashion to legal owners doesn't mean shit one if there is that one guy doing straw sales. If the privilege to own firearms is contingent on me keeping written records that are spot-inspectable by the BATFE agents, or having a simple background check by the FBI and local law enforcement before I can buy certain arms, then so be it, I have nothing to hide, and I have nothing to worry about. If we lifted all control on gun purchases/ownership do you honestly believe that those who intend on doing harm to others will somehow stop obtaining arms? If you allowed every person who desired, to carry a loaded concealed handgun, do you honestly believe that violence and crime would cease? Do you realize that those who use firearms for violent crime typically do not fear a "well armed population" as many have no fear of death?
It is not simply a magazine fed semi-auto rifle, it is a rifle specifically designed to be an efficient and effective killing weapon. Make no mistake sir, Eugene Stoner designed the AR platform to kill, not to hunt game, not to punch paper, not even to look cool on your favorite forum dressed up with your newest tacticool gear... he designed it TO KILL. He designed to put large quantities of well-aimed fire onto target at ranges between 5 and 600m; <5m, time to fix bayonets. He designed it with an easily changed, large capacity magazine, to ensure the user has plenty of rounds in reserve to engage multiple targets quickly. The round was chosen for its inherent accuracy, kill probability, but most of all because you could stuff more of them in a smaller magazine. This was so the the average soldier/Marine could carry more rounds with less weight, making sure he could put more rounds on target with less fatigue. How is that not an "assault rifle?"
The PEOPLE in this country need to teach responsibility and morality to their children, and as a community ensure each child is held to high standards within the greater society. Stating that getting "back to God" will somehow fix the problems at hand is a feeble attempt at demonizing those who choose not to believe in Judeo-Christian rhetoric. As if those who do not follow the teachings of religious institutions are the only ones who do evil to others, despite history's lessons on the contrary. I have witnessed atrocious acts done in the name of religion. Please understand that I am not attacking anyones choice to follow their own path, I am simply saying that the last thing this republic needs is to force faith onto the population; thus removing choice. Let us not forget there are a number of other amendments beyond 2nd that some are so quick to toss around.
...and my thoughts go to the families effected in the area, and those who now question the security of their children throughout the nation. I also hope the morons on the news and politicians don't take away from their situation to move towards their conservative, or liberal, agenda.
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It is not a privilege to own a firearm. It is a constitutionally protected right. It's the same sort of right that allows you to spout your ignorance in public.
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I think we should hold the gun owners accountable. If they gave someone the combo to the gun safe or left the gun on the table, then they have committed the crime.
Same as if a bar tender lets someone drink to the point and kills someone on the way home.
Same as if a bar tender lets someone drink to the point and kills someone on the way home.
That's right, do away with a personal responsibility.JohnB said:
I don't think it is a "right" anymore - considering the background check one goes through to legally own one.Mike Rupp said:
And I am not sure why is it - or why should it be - a right while driving a motor vehicle is a privilege. Something isn't right there.
Mike_Rupp said:
I said it is a privilege for ME to own the fire arms I do, and to purchase in the methods I can. This is contingent on my maintaining my license with the BATFE, maintaining my "bound book", keeping all non C&R Title-II arms legal and stamped, and being subject to inspection at any time by the aforementioned agency. Now, where is this ignorance you speak of?
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Corprin said:
Our rights have become privileges and it seems that you accept that. I don't remember the constitution discussing our privileges to own certain types of firearms and having a right to own others.
ptschram
Well-known member
p m said:
Some children have to worry about being asked "short-sleeves" or "long-sleeves". Some children have to worry they will be killed for trying to go to school. Some children have to worry that if accosted by a policeman if they answer in the wrong language, they will be killed. Some have to worry that if they admit to one form of religion versus another, they risk being killed. Yet others have to worry that one of their parents will kill them to maintain the pride and honor of the family
Some children grow up never having set foot in a school, but they learn something useful-survival skills.